For the LGBTQ+ Muslim community being visibly out could put their lives at risk, so we used audio to create a safe space to make the voices of LGBTQ+ Muslims visible through the Istame'a podcast.

Muslim Stories

Guests share their personal stories about navigating religion and sexuality as well experiences within the wider LGBTQ+ community.

Stigma of Shame

Guests discuss where stigma of shame comes from and how they overcome this and when they believe they will be fully accepted by both the LGBTQ+ and Muslim communities.

Religion vs Culture

This episode explores how religion and culture are interlinked within Islam. Guests tell stories of their own experiences and discuss how this impacts the queer Muslim community.

The Concept of Coming Out

Coming out can be difficult for LGBTQ+ Muslims. This episode focuses on why personal safety must always be paramount, while providing practical tips and sharing coming out stories.

Muslim Stories Transcript

Hello and salaam, I'm Rabia and welcome to Istame'a a new podcast is for Hidayah, which means listen bringing you cutting edge dialogue on what it means to be LGBTQ. I plus and Muslim. Hidayah are the fastest growing LGBTQI plus Muslim organisation that provides a vital nationwide support system for us and by us.

The word Hidayah derives from the Arabic word for guidance. This podcast will be discussing raw and personal storeys from our members so you can better understand what life is like for us by sharing our stories. Joining us today we have Sunny, a new Hidayah member who grew up in Saudi. Ibrahim who's worked in gay men's health for the last 15 years and is a member of Hidayah and Amber who is a volunteer for Hidayah and works in fintech. Tell us about a pivotal point in your life where Muslim identity became very apparent to you, especially as an LGBT plus Muslim.

I think my Muslim identity has always been there and like everybody else, I'm sure in my formative years and in my early 20s, maybe I went through a phase where I thought it was wrong to be Muslim and gay. When I met other gay Muslims, there was a turning point, realises that I wasn't the only one. Who was, you know, gay and Muslim.

Okay, sunny yeah, um I guess growing up and so the mostly sort of beaten into you everywhere so I wasn't really aware of that till I came to UK.

Hey, um where I've met people from other religion more openly and learned about other religions and then started to explore my ********* I guess um, for a long time here I thought I was the only Muslim one. Though it is nice to identify with other LGBT queer people different religion, but it still feels like there is a disconnect between them and I being a Muslim but joining had Iowa's mind mindboggling is.

Between them

It was a turning point for me where I felt like I can discuss all these questions that I had in my mind with other people. All Muslim gay people and.

Yeah, I feel like that was the point of Medialising and Muslim.

Pansexual person wow. Okay, I'm Beth yeah I'm so. I guess it was kind of the early 20th when is slowly becoming a bit more apparent.

And that's because I was faced with, you know, being a bit more independent, having my first job finished University encountering things like drinking culture in the UK so.

A bit of context. I grew up in a kind of a Asian Muslim mixture of Hindu kind of school upbringing, where I wasn't the minority. As part of the majority. So it's really then that became a bit more apparent. Better actually, how do I navigate the world? Being Muslim again at the same sort of time? That's also. But I was exploring certain things about my gender identity. So new found independence, my own job, my own money.

Am I also coming of age kind of thing or that played into?

Listening identity being.

Quite fun centre about what I needed to workout.

With less things going on.

Is the most significant Storey that has shaped you as a person specially as an LGBT plus Muslim?

5-6 years back on where as a Pakistani Muslim culture dictates you're going to get arranged, marriage and my mum was looking for someone to get married.

And I was with my partner at the time was a female.

And it was hidden. And that was one of the things that would come up between our relationship a lot and, um.

It would just so happen that things wouldn't work out and I would get rejected most of the time, but there was this one proposal that came and it was sort of everything is clicking it was working.

And I was very hesitant as to how am I going to get out of it now.

When my mum suggested that she was going to do the harder and she's going to get ******** on teacher to do is to harder.

Would you like to explain?

What that is, it's the high is a special prayer that you do and then asking aloud whether the decision that you want to make or about to make will work out for you or not. An usually it could be in a dream format as well where you get a dream that gives you a sign as to what it might be or things may or may not work out according to that, but it's like it's a special prayer.

All.

I'm asking for guidance. Basically cool, thanks.

And I actually do believe in that some people may not, but.

At that time I was like, oh crap Cuzz. If being gay is wrong. If being the way I am is wrong, this far is the heart is going to show. Marry this person Cos whether this person is right for me or not doesn't matter because being with a girl is wrong.

And be with the guys, right? So Godbolt automatically in my logical head would have given this hard or go and how am I then going to get out of it?

But it turned out that the my mum's gone teacher, her June. I've not shared this with a lot of people, but I feel like the biggest significant thing in my personal life was the star. She dreamt that I was in a nobia. As covered I was and there was light coming out for me. But then there is this other things that are attacking me, yet I was reflected.

Acting them very Welland I was strong and stood in my way.

So she interpreted as there's something that is wrong with the guy that I'm going to have difficulty with, and slowly it turned out that he was a very different sect and very different rigid kind of Muslim, and I did not believe in those values of rituals and things. And at that point that was a change. If God didn't appreciate why was he would have whatever that life might have been like wrong for me obviously would have just said, Oh yeah, marry this person. That should have the Sahara should have come out positive, but it didn't.

Ha.

And that's where I felt at peace for being who I was, because it was sort of like a sign from God, saying, you know what? It's okay. I'm not. I'd rather you be with whoever you want rather than be with the wrong person. And I think that's the Storey that sticks out to me, the.

Most yeah, it's interesting emotion because I had a bunch of those as well. I'm very indecisive person.

So.

During my USD as in college as well, I was more religious.

I'm.

And a specific kind of religious which was more around.

Rules regulations that type of um?

Kind of commitment to religion if you will, but something that you kinda born with and grew up with and you think this is the way things are and you continue and you get better and better at it and you become. You get everything you need to do is to eat all these things but you bye bye everything. The turning point for me was.

Kind of starting work being exposed to different groups of people and it sounds strange, but you obviously I grew up with the TV and all that. I knew what you know, white people were, ET cetera, but you begin to.

You

Need different types of people as well.

And you know, like eventually you get to a point where I'm trying to reconcile this kind of gender identity thing that I've had ever since I was young too, with Islam and in terms of the certain little nooks and crannies of Islam I got into, which were not.

Radio on the signing of anything to do with gay or lesbian raising like.

It drove me to, well, I must reject myself or reject Islam or something. So I took a kind of sabbatical. If you will, you know about famous Kanye lyric.

I'll be I told God I'll be back in a second man. It's so hard to act reckless.

Hey.

Love that, so that's kind of what I did. I completely flipped. It was like a bungee cord. I was held by this elastic band of religion.

Not that sorry.

I'm completely went the other way.

Okie exposing myself, I want to do is as much as outreach as I possibly could into the LGBT community, so I want to meet as many trans people as I can. As many gay people as I can, ET cetera. So I thought at the time being so naive, it's all in the clubs. Just go to the clubs, you need the mall. Everything will be crystal clear an actually I wish I hadn't stayed in that particular, although it was a path I need to go through to understand everything. As long as I did.

I wish I found things like support groups that yeah, I wish I found things like Hidayah earlier but.

I think what kind of brought it full circle for me back into like where we are today and in the diary talking about these things.

Is a.

I just found a kind of gap of spiritual.

Cool.

No explanation of everything that happens. I had it before and I've lost it and so and that gap was missing and I found some just lectures and things like that on YouTube about far Eastern religion, Buddhism, ET cetera. For the first time I had the permission to properly study different religions and not feel guilty about it or not feel like I'm committing shirk by trying something new.

And eventually it brought me back into sort of that spiritual side of Islam that I didn't know anything about.

And yeah, that was kind of.

In the most pivotal kind of transformation familiar, maybe.

Hey for him.

I think for me I grew up in a household where religion wasn't really pushed down our throats. Our parents were like Okay, were Muslim. There was, like I'd say we went rigid in our practise.

But my mother was somebody else close to and I watched her and what she has to do is like every Thursday night, did the frontier for people who passed away for 10 days on the home. When I saw your kids should go to much less and were Sydney solo people think in. Especially nowadays people think more women mentioned is only for shares with its not As for Muslims everyone and understanding the importance of the 10 days of Carmelite cetera. And I remember I used to measure their mother and also my mother would.

Also, you know, like I suppose, I'd describe it as a Sufi more than you know, what if you want to find a word to describe at Andaz about 13 or 14? And I went with her to a shrine for the first time and I didn't know what the etiquette was. I know she said to me is we go in and we pray and she goes whatever you ask for you ask for their help to ask a lot for you and that is it and everything I asked for came through except the one thing and that was I said if being gay is wrong, please help me wake up and not be gay.

And that to me, I felt warmer answers. Whether everything else I had asked for that day at the train. You know, I got, so I thought this tool as a ********* as my ********* was. Basically it's okay. But having said that, then there were certain Islamic principles you have to apply.

Do you know your life whether you're gay, straight, BI, whatever? And I think I've lived by those principles. You know, like promiscuity being frowned upon, so making sure that there now we all have needs. We all have urges ET cetera. But trying not to be driven grinder, or, you know, like in those days we didn't have that anyway. But you're not going out and meeting people just for promiscuous *** rather than trying to find a relation.

Where in the eyes Wala it is better to be with one person? I feel you know in a long term relationship then it is to sleep with several people because even as a heterosexual Muslim I think I left rounds up on you. If you were to meet that lifestyle. But it isn't just my personal opinion and you know everybody has the right to live their life. They want to, you know. And I think that was one of the points of the segment as I was young and some other I think realised very long time ago. I remember when I was a kid, someone who didn't arrange marriage in the family and I went to Hannah said.

When it's time for my arranged marriage, make sure you find me a really nice boy and she smiled and looked at me. She goes when it's time you make sure you find yourself a nice boy and I remember once I was at the dance house and my cousin and I were both like complaining about being single. This is not early 20s were like oh now we're getting married now and then. My aunt is cooking. She shouted, don't worry, you'll both find good boys for yourselves. So it was one of those things that I just, you know, the elders. Well, just giving me a message saying it is okay to be who I was.

That's lovely, yeah.

That's lovely.

Yeah, thanks and also my daughter said to me she goes. What happens to you? Just make sure that.

You will be a good person. You know you're nice to people you know you're kind to people you don't help people, and most important, don't forget a lot. That is the only thing that can be yourself. So for me that is again the messages telling me know who I was and what happens is fine. I think many years later when I worked at the mouse project, doing presentations and meeting within arms and I think that was on the messages coming through one of the mums were like you know, their allies. You know when we met them in public there were not. And when in private that say you know what we understand we support.

But we cannot save because of fear of rejection from the congregation.

You

I remember one of things lucky in the last project London was asking people to do a sermon for awhile day today and they refused and I went to several mosques weeks before asking them please, this is something you should consider and they were like no. You know what the community will have accepted congregational. Accept it, you know there they have standing in the community and then need to think about everybody.

And it wasn't something that we're going to discuss, but privately. They were all you know, we're saying the same thing, but one of the things that came up time and again was, you know when people said, is it wrong for me to be gay? They will say allow would be happier with you if you find one person of the same *** to spend your life with them to get married to a person of the opposite *** and cheat on them with several people of the same *** through your.

If I think there was a strong message that I gave up to little people when I was working saying this is something you need to think about South. I mean I'm talking about when parents came to see me, for example saying and how can we change our son or you know my son's gay and I don't know what to do about it and I want to get married to a woman. You have to explain what it was. Nothing wrong with the other things outside the conference in Manchester where it was huge crowd of mostly.

And there's me, and there's a lady from Jewish.

Jewish community who was and we had worked together a few times everytime would stand back, would laugh and say okay. Our speeches very similar because we works, you know together or other things has allowed the crowd. Though with Muslims were like it is wrong to became Muslim and I said something and I said look a lot of the times people who are gay are forced to marry a person of the opposite *** because the family think it will changed.

And I said, can I have a shelf hands here? Who thinks it's OK to do that, you know, and they will raise their hands. Or when the Muslims did and I said, do you think it's OK now? If you found out that your daughter, your son, your brother, your sister was married to somebody because they are family found out that they were gay and now they wanted them to marry your child or your sibling because they thought you know what it will make them better. Would you still agree with that and people didn't? And I said, just understand.

And you know what every gay person marry somebody that person there Mary of the opposite *** with there being forced to marry has a life as Welland. They have a you know they have urges and desires on in a ****** need which discuss will not be able to fulfil. So think about everyone, they really just be selfish. Think about yourself.

What is the most challenging thing about being?

An LGBT plus Muslim.

The most challenging thing for me being trans is.

Going through that transformation in front of your family.

And particularly family, but also your friends.

So it's it's a lot more apparent what you're going through as a transformation and for them to reconcile what this means for Islam. At the same time as you're doing it an incredibly challenging because then you don't really have some kind of stable bedrock for here.

To say right, this is my idea of where I want to get to and.

I need support to get there, but your support are going through burn through as well, not just you.

Yeah, I think there's lots of things I can go through. Lots of little mini situations, but just remember we bring things back to how difficult it is.

Would you like to share an example with this movie?

I'm so just a simple factor. For example, living with your parents.

I mean, you're trying to explore what gender identity means.

So you might want to leave the house in a certain presentation and that can be uncomfortable for the parents involved and enables or whoever to be fair neighbours been fine and it's more just the perception that your parents have about what they think you're doing it for and what you know you, what you need to do to do it.

And sometimes to have to just put faith that things are going to work out and that things will roughly.

Fall into place and that you can only be as brave as you can.

Funny.

I think for me personally, it's the guilt that I'm putting my family through coz I maybe yeah cause I may be okay with who I am and I might accept me but I know it's such a cognitive dissonance for them to understand. I empathise with them. I completely empathise with all the all the parents who are afraid for their children they.

Maybe showing it in. I'm not making excuses for how they behave, but it might come out in an aggressive way, but.

It's again being routed from fear. They're afraid what the society may do to them, or you going up, and so the like, I said, um.

Illegal to be gay. It's you are punishable by death being and expect in. So these different scenario altogether where you're probably punishable to that will definitely punishable to death, while your family will probably be deported as well. So you're not just making a decision for you, but you're connected to all these people, and then you think.

I do, I just stay the way I am and pretend to be normal quotation marks. Whatever normal is and just live the life they asked me to. Or should I be true to myself and put them in that sort of danger? I know it's not the case in UK as much but in Pakistan and Saudi it's still still a huge backlash that that people will have to deal with. If you come out as gay pen or whatever. So I think for me that's the.

Biggest concern I have. I'm not out to my family.

But yeah, that's I like if I find considering new pound, I feel like it's easy. If it's a guy lucky me everything fits, but if it's a girl then.

Jenna

Might as well put them through the pain when I need to.

But yeah, that part of me. I'm not okay with. I feel the guilt and I wish I didn't have to think that's a difficult thing to deal with.

Very difficult, very traumatic.

Cheque in for him.

Nothing we face challenges everyday, but my main challenges have come from a very young age. I never came out. I don't think I'm the straightest bunch that came out of the closet. So I think I never had to. People just assumed it was about my ********* and I just let them assume.

What's being challenged with me? I think there was a time in my early middle 20s when I was sat down by my father and my brother and they asked me about marriage and I said I wasn't ready to get married.

And they said, oh, there are rumours about your deviant lifestyle and I said and I remember, you know, as a child of the 80s I was dying. My hand. You know, you know what? Make up abit? You know I'm quite proud of that, which is quite fun, but they sort of said to me we just want you to be aware of the one fact. And that is if you ever have a relationship or you have a partner.

It would never be okay for him to come home and meet us, so we don't ever want to know about who you were seeing or worry whether you're single or not, or you're married or not. To somebody of the same *** because that will never be accepted. And to this day, none of my family has ever known anything about my personal life, and I've kept it that way. But having said that, a little bit about what like a sunny said earlier, my family is I do come from a slightly prominent family and I have to be aware of their reputation as well.

As to how I behave and I feel.

That also is a challenge, but I mean it's something I do quite easily, so I make sure you know you just don't hook up or get involved to be involved. Anybody who you think will have a link back who can, and also being aware of who's using you and who is just wanted to be with you. Visit generally want to be.

And that also, I mean, as I've got older, I've found a lot of younger people do that, specially now at the moment when a lot of people are here.

And if you know for whatever reason, and they want to remain in the UK and the sort of thing you know finding an older man, and maybe he'll, you know Mario, so will be with him or her relationship with him and you found at the moment you actually say, you know that's not something I'm entertaining, they just don't want to know you. So look OK. So you just wanted to be so this challenges everywhere. I think that one of the main challenges of being gay Muslim. Yes, we have off days where you think am I doing the right thing? Is Alexa app to me for who I am.

But I'll handle a I might. My faith is very strong and even I've had a bad day. I'm gonna, I'll just ask a lot of guidance and.

I'll be fine alarm to 9 now what I carry on and everything is going well and hopefully that's what I pray. And I think one thing we forget about is when we pray we have to pray. And I do mention everybody who's facing challenges. And I mean in time mankind not only Muslims.

But I do pray for the LGBT community and I do pray for those Muslims were stuck in countries where it's illegal to be gay and specially when you hear storeys about ISIS and I should have, they are throwing people off buildings and stuff and that becomes painful. Iran hanging people. So you pray for them. And I also think when you're doing Satya, just remember those people.

You know from other cells and pray for their souls. I mean, that's important which people forget. I mean, we are young at the moment, will not let me Maxi. Now. People are young at the moment. We tend to forget. But there is another slam states. If you're Muslim. That's why we here. There is life after death and we need to remember those people have passed on before us and pray for them.

Not with anything.

I really want to solve explore.

What your experiences have been? You know, being an LGBT plus more slim.

Within the wider LGBT plus community.

Sunny

I think, well again, I think they are very accepting, but I'm not going to much of a help there coz I've I was the first proper organisation that I've been out too.

I.

I feel like again like there is a disconnect where when I would talk to other gay or LGBT group that were question or not must leverage and majority of them didn't follow religion. So in their head concept of God or your guilt or your questions in your battle of whether you're right or wrong didn't exist so.

And they didn't understand where I was coming from. Cousin their head again that it's that conception of Are you sure you're gay? An villages that doesn't go hand in hand?

But I don't know if it's because they didn't grow up with the faith that they they were chosen or born with. It's easy to say I'm agnostic or atheist nowadays.

So I think that's one of the things that I found, um, talking to other like a wider LGBT group is. Suppose they don't have the same problems or the same questions are the same queries that we may have. They well over here where I found in general was definitely don't have the same experiences that we have in regards to family or their responsibility towards family. It's because I've heard it's so simple for them is like.

Just don't talk to your hand.

And because like that's not possible, I cannot cut off from my family. That is, just that is not a thing for me was I've been told, just don't talk to them and that concept is very very foreign to me. I think that there's a disconnect there, it.

Yeah.

Has really been the first kind of group that I've properly started to engage with the LGBT Muslim community.

Prior to that, again like us mentioning I was out clubbing doing all this stuff and thought that's where I can meet people who are LGBT.

And because I guess because they are in a certain space and time in their lives and journeys.

That they are not focused on religion per say. They're also that kind of very wide open. Let's explore everything, including being as hedonistic as possible to none. Whatever pain there might be going through and.

I think it takes time to accept you may that's no longer where you're going to find peace.

In peace comes back to.

And.

You know we configuring everything in your life, family, friends and everything. Letting go of it, but ideal that you thought you might have realised that might not be possible and you create a new ideal that will work.

It's about coming out for me an and then going through that process with my parents.

Almost a bit more accepting she in away knew it was coming. My dad also knew it was coming, but he never let on that he.

Ever thought he'd have to confront something like this and his advice is completely more logical in terms of well.

That's fine, you're turns, but have you thought about not being trans and doing this? Getting married did airplay this order or ET cetera?

And again, just being brave again, I'm mentioning to see what happens because you can't quite predict. So when I came out to my eldest auntie, she started telling me a Storey of another trans person on her side of the family.

That I didn't know about and obviously has been kept on to their that storeys here reserved for very special people in the group. Maybe gets lost in the generations.

How and how that particular Storey went because it was some time ago it didn't go.

Very well, let's say.

It was, it was a sad Storey.

Anne.

So she was Adam and I don't want that to happen to you.

So if there's anything you need.

You let me know.

And.

I will support you in anyway I can.

And whatever you decide you want to do, whether it's to not transition or transition or whatever keys that you must be happy. And I think that's the type of messaging you might get from things like aunties and uncles rather than your own parents because they're so scared to tell you that even though they feel it because they feel they don't want to push the ball or push you in a certain direction.

They don't know as well they are on a journey.

With you it's fear of your safety and basically yeah.

Yeah yeah, they fear. Oh will I be happy? Does this person know what they're doing?

Wow, do you know?

How I have to do this thing for me and yeah.

Its basic misconception where they think it's a choice rather than who you are.

Then you choose to be LGBT and you could just not like if you could stop then do not think that we went through that process.

For him, you have, you're very wise because all of all your experiences and seeing and experiencing the LGBT plus community throughout the decades. If you will, so would.

You like to talk to us a bit about that.

I think I can say initially talking about mid 80s onwards.

You were OK in certain parts of London in certain parts of the scene, but other times we faced racism and a lot of rejection from the LGBT community.

And then I think recently there was an exhibition about, you know, the queer Asian movement. I actually I think in 1987 or 88 I fatso and ad at that time. You know big Bollywood Buff Stardust magazine and there's a lad saying are you gay? Do you want to talk to somebody called this number on a Sunday afternoon or whatever?

And I remember calling and speaking to this person and they said, oh, there is a group we've just started and it's called Shakti. And this is the first South Asian group and I remember going to that and being very active in that group.

And all the storeys that came back with the same we all wanted to find a connexion with each other, and be that support one another, because although not everyone but nearly almost everyone had experienced some sort of rejection go down many years later, when we decided to March for pride, and we will, you know, just to try and stand out of the crowd. Will hijabs colourfully jazz men and women?

And this is 2007 and there's actually two or three weeks before the 77 bombings, and I remember when we were marching and I remember some famous faces is coming out and saying, hi, well done, you know all that? But then we had a lot of gay people, people, mental LGBT community coming up to us and saying, are you going to be in this place now? Another that was something that really hurt a lot of us. Without him we are part of the community. Will not here too, you know.

Damage anyone or do anything and yet rather than accepting us, you just basically discriminating against us anything that's happened. I remember there was a time when a friend, another friend of mine and I went out somewhere to just for a drink and a part of the Shakti group. I mean, we supported one another it it doesn't know about. Religion is about just being South Asian queer, so ASI kind of mine and I went out to pub and we walked in and everybody shut up and looked at us with ballistic, a publicist code, sit at the bar and order a drink. So we ordered a drink each and that I just said.

Make sure when you finish that you get out of here. We don't like your sorting here.

And that was never calling those. It's a penny Farthing in Hammersmith, but is quite you know. And we were like quite shocked and it wasn't the first time that it happened. It happened to several people several times. So I mean I think it. You know things are changing now. But the other thing you had the other side. The flipside of that was basically finding the people who wanted to be with you because you were exotic. It wasn't the only thing else they wanted an exotic partner or to be with somebody. I've never been with an Indian.

Full in like wow, yes you know we got the Kama Sutra so you should know so they just understanding then you know you have all sides but yes there have been challenges or all through the years and things have got easier. But again sometimes it's not been as easy and I hear I also understand it's not easy for. I mean, it's probably easier to be in London than other parts of the UK.

But one of the things that comes out of this mentioned early as well as they will just tell you that you should come out. You know you have to be true to yourself. You know you have to tell your parents. Tell your family, tell you, know your friends, and it's not that easy. They don't understand and I'll always tell somebody sorted. Come out is if you look at your situation in their safety first. Do you have people who might want to harm you as a result of you coming out? Then it's not worth it. You know your family, you know what you've got to lose.

I feel like I had a friend who had worked with his father to build up a business.

And he had two siblings, one nothing to do with the business. And the moment he came out.

His father was okay with it, not happy, and then the father retired inside to sell the business. And you're talking about a huge business worth millions and he left him with very little. He goes well, you gay would you expect and everything was left at the other siblings who were very successful and because, well, you're not going to anyway, so you don't need much money. Even then make your own. So understanding when it's okay to come out and understanding your own situation and not really giving into pressure.

And not even just being aware.

At.

Just doing what's best for you. I think that's that's important, said the LGBT community. Do not understand that it's not as easy being gay Muslim then it as is it for other people.

Yeah.

Final question, what is the most important Storey?

People should know.

About you, to best understand you and your journey.

So I can look at it more like thematically.

Sure.

What are the things that shaped me the most and for me it's been about.

Facing shame and guilt.

Anne.

I'm kind of working through that end.

So I think I've grown the most. Whenever I've done that.

As a person.

Seven everyone facing a situation. Where are this is unfair? Guilty about this shouldn't be doing this or you know what? My putting my parents through ET cetera. But then I plough on with it anyway in terms of keeping that in mind.

And but

I'm the worst kind of scenario. Doesn't play out, usually anymore ends up happening is something that probably couldn't have predicted.

I'm yes, that's very like very conceptual Storey.

I think for me.

It's just for people to realise my ********* is a small part of me and the same brother, the same sun, the same uncle, the same great uncle, the same neighbour, the same cousin. Whether you want me to be.

My ********* is a small part of me, so it, whereas they choose.

To find companionship with the person with the opposite *** I choose to find companionship with a person of the same *** and that's all. There is nothing else. It's not a big song and dance about everything else. I'm still the same Muslim as to pray to same God. I still do everything else that they do and I'm still accepted.

Most of the time with the same people, very few people who you know. I think I've come to an age, ways people don't really want to engage with me. Then you know goodbye and good luck. I don't mind having said that under same.

Person what my ********* does not define me and who I am. There's a lot more to me as a person then you know, my ********* is a small part of me and I think one of the things that does thing with gay people don't think about lesbian anything else. When you say that I'm gay, special Muslims and the community think ****** alright, so you're sodomite. In if you want.

Use that time and it's just understanding that you know what. That's a very small part of a gay man's life. If they decide to practise it and not everybody does, practise it and you know what being gay is about. Liking a person of the same *** and that's all there is to it. And it's a small part of my life. Everything else is the same as yours.

Final word, last word, should I say sunny I think.

Like Amber said, you can't pinpoint one Storey, but I think overall that I could say is finding peace with the news of or accepting who you are yourself coz.

If you keep finding yourself through other people's eyes, you're never going to be satisfied like I know with my parents on the CAS back home, I've been threatened with a lot of different things, one of them being that we're going to tell authorities that she's gay.

I mean, that's going to lead her to death and blah blah.

Till my parents is going to just get married to prove everyone wrong and I an I'd be like Mum even if it. I mean I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Let's not even discuss about that. But that in itself is a wrong thing to do. To marry just to prove someone else right or wrong, but in. But it also led me to believe, like, realise that my parents rather

Except that some things under the rug, like after that, they've never questioned my ********* or it came up where I was with a girl and somebody accuse me of being with a girl and they just take my word for it. And then that's it. They don't wanna know more. They also said that if they found out that I'm dead to them and all, and you know out of the family, they would kill me themselves all of that but.

I understand that it comes from a fear and if I keep seeing myself through their eyes, I'm never going to be happy. I have to be happy with who I am and satisfied with who I am and that's my business and everybody else can have their opinion of me is also theirs. It has nothing to do with me. I think that's the biggest thing I could learn from island experience.

Is that people's opinions?

Me are also theirs has nothing to do with me. I don't take ownership of that.

Wow, some serious levels of self reflection here.

Thank you all very very much. Thank you very much for listening. If you would like further information or support, head to our website at hidayahlgbt.co.uk, hit by a is a support group that amplifies the voices of LGBTQ I plus Muslims. We campaign for social justice to defeat the stigma taboo and discrimination faced by many within our communities. Our aim is to gain social acceptance as LGBTQ plus Muslims.

Thank you for listening.

See you again very soon.

Religion V Culture Transcript

Hello Ann, Salaams, I'm Rabia and working to help Buyers podcast is there, which means listen bringing you cutting edge dialogue and what it means to be LGBTQ. I plus an Muslim hadiah are the fastest growing Muslim organisation that provide a vital nationwide support system for us and buy us the word hair Dyer derives from the Arabic word for guidance were proud to bring you honest, raw and personal storeys from our members so you can better understand what life is like.

So that's.

Joining me in the studio today are Cleal who works in education and sits on the Board of HIPAA Sunny, who is new member of higher grouping Saudi and is a PhD student and will Bean who works in education and is also another board member of Hair dye are welcome.

So this podcast will be discussing religion and culture and how they impact in our lives. So what do you think the dichotomy is between religion and culture? Halil.

Okay, I think first of all we really need to understand what culture and religion is, because even though their separate separate entities, they are actually intertwined and in some ways they are inseparable. So in regards to culture there the soul is the social heritage of every person which includes the knowledge that they required from years of being together from a particular SoC. So Pakistani culture will differ from Bengali culture from Indian culture ET cetera. Okay, so they are there.

Different culture really focuses on on human beings. Okay, where religion actually concentrates on on village on God and spirituality. So now to breakdown religion. Religion okay is. It's about faith, and spirituality is the connexion to a higher entity and the world beyond hours. It's about our connexion to the Creator. Okay, so almost there are two very separate entities, but actually what we have found is that religion actually seeps into culture.

And how, for example, the Shariah actually seeps into culture and how we should live our lives.

Well, just go on with Khalil said I'm it is important to understand the difference between religion and culture. Like he said, culture is based on the knowledge that we've. It's a body of knowledge that we've gathered living in societies and that could differ from.

An area like.

India, Pakistan which are very similar to then you're going to sell the witches again, though they follow the same religion. The culture can be very different.

And religion is a belief system, so the on the top of my head only example I can think of is if a religion says. But if I put it down to its bones, for example, marriage is assist. A religious belief. People believe that whoever is in love should get married.

So.

But how you doing?

That difference from culture, so it's like village and gives you a rig guideline of how you should live or is culture specifies. According to that, societies do how we're going to carry that load out, so I think that's a difference and that's why they're so muddled together in a way, and it's hard to separate them out. So I see it that.

Way, that's a brilliant example.

Thanks for being. What about you?

Yeah, I think it's quite a complicated question to be honest, because you know, offer.

I'm sorry.

I mean you can define religion and culture and again that is very subjective. I find you can go into academic arguments etcetera. But you know just like most things, as I view it, it's it's messy and our opinions and our surroundings are almost like a toolbox for how to tackle these.

These differences between religion and culture.

It's 2.

You

Anti LGBTQ I plus sentiment and homophobia within our Muslim communities. Do you think that derives from mainly of religious doctrine or a cultural one?

That personally I think it's, um. I personally think it's cultural.

And they use religion as a backbone to back that up cultural system that is built off, you know, hetro norm.

That are then, you know, religion is then used to inject too.

Have hate towards LGBTQ, IA, plus communities my.

Agree, I feel like people think question culture can be questioned was religion won't be questioned so therefore they use it as a almost as a scapegoat and hide behind it. But I do believe its cultural, the homophobia or the backlash that this community gets definitely cultural or whereas I feel like it's different in the sense that religion actually gives you the ability to quest.

Ocean man

In what way?

Question everything like it's the.

The laws and the guidelines are so vague, and from this the verses in the scriptures are wag and ask for a reason because it allows for different interpretations because everybody is different. Where is culture is very set in the way of particular society is, and to challenge that becomes a problem and I think people.

Well, are more afraid to challenge religion than they are culture. That's why religion gets used is sort of like a bad person, I suppose.

Like I said, yes yeah.

Scapegoat woman.

I agree, I think. I think culture really defines you know the role of role of genders and actually women are meant to behave in a particular way. Men are meant to behave in a particular.

Play anything that crosses those boundaries would be deemed as culturally unacceptable, and then people will then use religion you know to actually counter argue that and actually fight in defence of. Actually this is not acceptable, but actually what Sonny was saying about scriptures being vague is actually due to lack of understanding. People will confuse scripture and confuse urea and actually use that against people which actually is unacceptable and it's one of the reasons why slow mile.

Afternoon Office branded as homophobic because people actually culturally use it to their own.

To their advantage and what they don't realise is you're actually. You count assassinating an entire faith which actually is based on beauty and acceptance and love and kindness.

Well, it's it is very similar to like it's still going on with women rights and it's similar underwear much step further behind when it comes to LGBTQ community rights.

Um again, they use Islam and trailers actually very open to women rights, and it's probably one of the best religions for women and their rights. But when you look at cultures so the culture or Pakistani culture and so these probably one of the most back backwards in the way they treat women, though it's changing now. But growing up we weren't allowed to go out without a male male partner or father or.

I'm at home basically, and that's not how it is in Islam. If you look at um, if you look at the storeys and some verses, I mean women were allowed to go out, do their own thing.

Office wife, all of them had a role and all of them did everything that they could have. The cathedral was a business woman. How can you then go and say women are not allowed to study?

Or go out and do work a business or there are certain things that are acceptable for women to do. When Islam doesn't limit you to that, and I feel like because we've been fighting for that, it's a bit better now, but because we're still so back with the LGBT community and their rights. If you like that, it just gets sort of.

Drifted off and.

Hidden somewhere in the messages and because of the homophobia, people afraid to come out and talk more about it.

So I was in a couple of days ago. I was in a cafe and I overheard a conversation from some Muslim mothers who discussing religion, which is always an interesting topic in the morning.

So.

But I ever heard them sort of saying, you know?

So being gay and Muslim or being LGBT is unacceptable in Islam, but they were sort of saying how they take a more secular approach to human rights to accept LGBT people, but.

Don't think it will ever be accepted scripturally or within the religion. And how does that make you feel? What do you think about that will be?

Yeah, it's and it's interesting because I mean I come from come from the outside. Relatively conservative conservative family, but.

No so religiously inclined. I mean everyone kind of brazen. Does you know religious kind of duties?

And it's been an interesting discussion ongoing discussion. Ever since I've come out to them because we realised that you know, culturally.

There's a lot of fear and stigma attached to kind of the LGBTQ icon.

Sure that they don't want injected into their lives because they feel that it's a. It's a. It's a way to. That is something that they cannot explain to others outside of that bubble off your home so you know some of the discussions where we're having recently is that you know everything that happens within our home.

Why is it difficult to talk about those things outwardly rather than just inwardly, because from inside perspective and very comfortable being at home with my parents and my brothers, sisters and their partners and their kids, you know my cousins ET cetera, but you know, speaking out.

Sadly, I think that's very challenging for that, and I think a lot of that stems from kind of fear or for.

Of being lynched, almost listen.

To me it feels like they're playing God in ways. If I break it down, it's who are you to judge? It's God's job to judge, and if.

You're deciding that for me then you're playing God.

It's a very personal thing. Religion is a very personal thing as well, so it's definitely more of a cultural fear than it is of religious fear. And then when they use are with me personally. The biggest example is used as the Society of Loose and they say Oh yeah, taking that example is just homophobia. Homosexuality is completely wrong, but if you look at the Storey, it's not just about being homosexual, it's about **** It's about not getting consent.

But those things get get sort of lost in the conversation because.

That's not helping the culture in general, but mask it.

With this, because this is, this is.

Causes more fear or.

Anger or male completely agree with you. Actually. First of all, I think it's you know, it's commendable that they've actually having this dialogue, which is actually really important, because if they're able to actually have this conversation, that means they're actually open to die.

Long now there are a number of things in this. First of all, is that often enough. One of the reasons why people will not engage in dialogue in regards to LGBT issues is because there's a fear that you are talking again Scripture, and once you talk again Scripture people immediately shutdown because too.

Two questions Scripture means to question God to means questioning your position in Islam and to some people you know even actually questioning your faith and weather. Actually you are still Muslim or not because if you don't accept this then you remove yourself from an Islamic boundary which actually is incorrect. It's something that you said something about Alexis Texas to question expects us to use our logic. He wants us to do this because ultimately what faith is is.

He is the.

Is trying to figure out the unknown. You can't figure out the unknown without actually asking questions about here and then trying to figure it out.

That's the first thing, so I think it's important that they having a dialogue. Secondly, I think the other issue that again something you mentioned was this question of judgement in is really interesting when it comes to this particular issue. Everybody seems to get on their high horse. However, let's talk about some of the major sins. If we're going to talk about homosexuality as a major sin. Okay, so there are number there, you know. Okay, homosexuality there is. You know there's the taking of interest. There's drinking, there's gambling there is murder.

ET cetera. Never have I ever come across a dialogue with anybody. Has had this conversation.

Of like this in regards to LGBT issues, why is it this one particular issue that everybody seems to question? I've never seen anybody outside the school outside the Council offices or government office, you know, or a bank you know protesting against interest, you know there drinking in this country, gambling, you know, ET cetera. We don't, you know, but with this one particular issue we seem to and where you fall into is exactly what's only saying you fall into judgement.

Well, Frank.

You know this is where you really question your own. Your impiety when actually you're not there to judge. You're not there to question, and you are certainly not there to condemn. And I think it's a very serious issue for one more slim to say to another. You can't be gay and Muslim at the same time because actually you have absolutely no right to say that unless it's no condition, unless there's no, there is no definitive success criteria in order for a person to be Muslim and anything else in a lot size, you can be anything that you like.

As long as you're Muslim, that's the most important thing to me.

The rest you may believe to allow two questions on the day of Judgement.

One thing that I found quite.

Profound, when I joined Hidayah was how.

Aligned individuals were to their faith, who identified as as as LGBT, because one of my preconceived notions was because of the way.

Our Muslim communities treat LGBT plus Muslims. A lot of these LGBT plus Muslims would want to disown their faith and distance themselves from their faith. But actually what I found was I was learning my Islam through members of his buyer through yourself clear. Even so I just kind of want to explore what?

How is your relationship with your faith and how do you feel when people sort of say that you cannot be LGBT plus and Muslim?

I'm going to say this quite complicated question because.

It really is. I mean, when I was in college I was kind of discovering my ********* and religion at the same time, you know. So I was being dragged to the.

Must buy a really dear friend of mine at college and I was reluctant to go at first because I just felt it wasn't really going to be accepted in that environment. I didn't come from an environment that was a mosque going family or madrassa going family at all. So it was very new. But at the same time they also calling with some kind of spirituality inside. Like wanting peace in inwardly.

You know, sometimes I was going to discover this with him at the same time I was, you know, just getting onto mean dating apps or not really around that time. So it was a website so you know newspapers or gathering in different places.

So I was discovering that too and exploring it in my own way, but I never seem to have separated them as many people do, so it was always aligned and the people that I was talking to a meeting and in my gay community they were really open to having discussions about kind of faith. And you know, spirituality which I loved. And as that's gone on in life, what I've realised I've always been inclined to kind of.

Wanting more.

I'm looking at a device divinity of peace and love and kindness to others and that manifests in many different ways.

For me, you know, just I mean the likes of kind of the reason why I like kind of stuff like yoga for example, that that's that's that mindset of kind of peace. I've found that within Islam when you go to the mosque and you know hear the call to prayer or you know when I put my down in secured already felt like there was a sense of connexion to a oneness to myself, but also to allow.

Yeah, you is anyone to take that away from. You say that you are not a part of that sunny. How about you?

Name absolutely, absolutely.

I think my experience is probably really different because I grew up in a very strictly Islamic culture growing up, and so the all of this was just available. There are five times prayers. You'd hear the odds on you would be going to versus you be learning about Crown. That was almost as given, but growing up. Where I found was how conservative and small narrow minded.

The the community in itself.

Was where you were not allowed to question anything.

I think my my piece or where I found my piece was logic. I wanted answers. I wanted to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing or why certain laws the way they are and the more I question, the more I was shutdown. And while I was gone from grand classes like because of the questions that I was asked asking.

The questions that you asked just out of interest.

Um, mostly about women rights and **** related questions, for example. Or abortion. If a woman was raped which allowed to abort the child because I don't know, the society is going to be not very kind towards her, and her life is over. It's not our fault that she got pregnant through the.

And then they wouldn't have questions for that. They would be like you're disrupting the whole thing. Just please leave.

And then again, the questions with LGBT group and community is to say why. If a girl says it comes out as gay or lesbian like Y, is it then okay to force her into marriage to someone she doesn't want, which is equally if you believe being gay is wrong, then forced marriage is equally wrong in Islam. How is 1 wrong? Making another wrong?

Right and then they don't have questions. The answers to these questions that we didn't say you're disrupting, disrupting the whole thing, and then they would kick you out and then that closing this made me realise that religion that is being taught is not religion at all, more culture. So I found my peace away from the masks in a way through not know Quran. I definitely made it made me want to research it more in depth and I think that's where I found my piece in finding answer.

These are rather than just doing simple rituals.

They discovered I was gay around about the age of 11, so my way of really fixing this was to throw myself into religion and I do come from a religious, you know, rather conservative family. So actually for good pubs in 80 two decades. I actually, you know, travelled on a very very Islamic journey where I've been on her job, done on my number of times. I have cited the golfing and numerous countries. I was very very strict and diligent with fast.

And with it making sure that everything was allowed, then making sure that I wasn't in any environment where there was what we would call someone for photos in morality, women, modesty I'd segregating myself and you know from females even as a gay man.

We left a very very, very well for docs lifestyle. You know which is a little bit of culture shock for people to hear sometimes. Well, actually, that's the life I lead, and even now, when I'm you know Im Augusta my stomach, you know life I still wait for you by wearing your Mama. I have a prayer beads in my.

And before long time, for me it was about how can I because I am gay. This is a defect in my character. Therefore everything else about my pyati has to be perfect. So that's the journey or went on when it came to my own Islam. It was only a lot later in my life. Worst, I'd realised. Actually I was almost fearmongering myself into religion. And actually that was a big problem for me. Becausr alone doesn't want us to love him because we're petrified of.

That's not love. That's not love. I mean Sunnyside here. Sunny told me, hey yeah, you have my partner here, and you know, but I'm really with that partner because I'm scared of them. I would be very really worried for you. You know it doesn't want us to love him because we're scared of another, wants us to love him because we love him. So I should ask me my journey. And that's my journey. Now where I am now. I still continue with my Islamic lifestyle. I still.

If you know that side of me, it's just not the orthodoxy that my family would probably expect.

But you you mentioned that I want us to love him, not fear him because we're told he loves us equal until 1770 mothers. Then, how is it that he would make us the way we are and then expect us not to be happy or not live a happy life, doesn't it doesn't?

Nope, it's fear your I mean in Saudi it still alive if they find out that you are lesbian gay then you're automatically sentence to death that has been used as a death threat several times personally. But so just for for your family, for everyone you just don't explore it and you just keep it.

It's fear.

**** him if it is, I love him.

To yourself, Mr Perfect is perfect when.

I came out to my parents or my family. You know there answer to this was that religion is normal. Fix this.

So I took a very different styles with my family and said I'm willing to do whatever you would like.

To do so, this is one of the reasons why I travelled on this journey. Was it you didn't get funny with my parents? Was it what is it that you would like me to do would like you to go on the hedge? We'd like you to do this. We'd like you to do that. So I explored every Ave with them lovingly. I did it because I wanted to do it to show them the hey I want you also not to feel responsible that I'm like this. So if you feel if you want me to do there something I did, I did all the things that they asked me to do and it's only now in my 40s do they really are they students starting to understand?

Actually, it's just you, it's just who you are.

And I know that most non religion now I've got on no no no matter Huja normalise I'm going to fix this that they have now accepted that Paul's me as it's just who you are.

Can it be fun to the next question?

So is Islam, LGBTQ, I plus friendly?

Phil 100.

Hi.

I actually have my hand up for this one and so actually I'm going to say something like something slightly controversial. Islam is LGBT friendly. Muslims per say or not, now want to explain this.

Because Islam was sent, you know, as the final religion. But actually as a final way of life for mankind, it wasn't a final way of life for heterosexuals and we need to understand.

This is an immediate questions. You are questioning alarm and his final message to mankind and the ground and the summer unless sent this as the final final version. That said, this is how I want you to live.

So actually when we talk about mankind, mankind is everybody. Everybody from all walks of life. So to say that actually gay people, straight transgender people, bisexual people etcetera etcetera are not included in the word. Mankind immediately differentiates us as human beings which means our lives discriminating, which is not which is not possible.

And Islam can't discriminate. Islam doesn't discriminate because actually a lot includes everybody. So actually for you to say that gay people LGBT people.

You know discriminated against is actually you actually highlighting the flu in the last character, which is in operation which which is not possible unless perfect in every way we know.

This.

So.

Everybody's included. Everybody has a place in Islam. Everybody has a place in this beautiful religion because I lost so locally says so. There's no, there's no, there's no challenge in this. However, the problem comes in is the interpretation of this, and when share prices are the Muslims. This is where the problem is.

And we have this experience at the moment with the Birmingham Schools for example, where actually, you know, we've been listening to them at constant we're not homophobic or not homophobic? No, you are you are homophobic. Unfortunately, when you take the stance of as Muslims then what you do is you also other face of Islam and this is what we here.

How can I communities strike a healthy balance between religion and culture?

So to answer your question, Marbeya actually its culture that needs to be removed completely because as we were growing up we have this constant dialogue from our parents about where we're from and the expectations and how we've lived our lives and how we need to emulate those in regards to our clothing regards to who we marry in regards to food in regards to everything else. There's this absolute determination from our parents to hold on to Pakistani roots and culture, even surpassing religion and even surpassing in our identity here.

Howard Entity here is multifaceted.

Because of my books, only my British and listening. What am I okay? It's mixed. That's where the problem is. And actually, you know, as an example you I find this a lot will actually. Oh you hear about somebody who's married out of culture for example. Or she married a white person machine OWC mode in India and is shock horror? Well actually assembly, you can marry whoever you want like as long as they missed him. So this shows us that actually culture is a very big problem.

I'm sad.

If we removed culture from the equation and we just looked at Islam and how Islam deals with people from the LGBT community, actually what you will find at the essence of it is actually very loving and incredibly warm and welcoming religion because it's based on non judgement, is nondiscriminatory. It's not full of hate, ET cetera, ET cetera. That's where we need to get to. That's where we need to get to, unfortunately.

The people who are empowering the pulpits you know in there must have been the most kids. They're the ones that need to communicate this. They are the ones that need to communicate. We accept everybody, everybody is welcome in Islam, regardless of how they live their lives, ET cetera. Everybody is welcome.

Um, it's surprising. I mean, I've I've been to Pakistan as well, growing up, and so it surprising how many people tell you.

Not to read the translation of the ground or just read it in a way or read certain translations, but not question them. An in my head, it almost feels like all if you have a maid coming over to clean up and you've given her list of things to do instead of understanding and doing them, you're just reading it, kissing the paper and putting it up on top of a mental and worshipping it is what we're doing without questioning. It will not understanding it, and we're already told not to do that, but.

Is those empowered want to manipulate that in the way they wanted to? And yeah, I think the best way to do it is be curious question. Ask questions. There's nothing wrong in asking questions.

Yeah, I I remember side side Storey I remember when I was in Friday school and this particular mosque put in so many resources and time and effort to teach the grant and Islam beyond just the learning. Arabic green not even learning Arabic. Learning to read out there.

Either think.

And they'd segregated the boys and girls in one room with a black claw.

And I remember I was just a pain in the **** to this movie. It is trying to teach us about science and Islam and the things he was saying was such rubbish like.

It's not believes the Earth is flat. Anyone telling you anything else is a liar. And then I was like, OK, cool and he's like I share, actually.

Then in the heady thigh, she had said that water is actually black and I'm like yo, if you like run any tap, you could see that water is not black is like yeah, but I should said it was and you're not allowed to question that. And then I was asking all these questions and he was like no if you ask anymore questions it will take you out of the fold of Islam. But if you really want to know about it meet me after class don't.

Do it in front of everybody else is it is about control. It is about not creating critical thinker.

Use.

We, our our Islamic leaders are so scared of emancipating people to become critical thinkers. Why for this very reason? Or if you ask too many questions you suddenly find yourself outside the fold of Islam. That's not necessarily the Case No why I think about it completely different by asking more and more questions. Actually it strengthens my.

Safe because actually gives me an understanding of those things are very controversial or things that don't make sense to me. Once I now have a good understanding of those you actually connects me to allow even more so. Actually I know we find this. We find a lot of this where you know they don't want to emancipate us, they just want us to follow blindly and that's it. You know, no questions, no one says you do as we tell you to do another.

It that's irrational, and that's illogical, and it's one of the reasons why I find a lot of people are leaving Islam. Unfortunately, because actually things don't make sense to them. And actually, if they were allowed to question and they were allowed to be critical, things would make more sense to them. Doesn't necessarily mean that they will agree, but that's okay as well, because you don't agree with something that doesn't necessarily put you outside the folder this left.

That's such an important distinction to make, absolutely.

Plus it's also in again, it's it's mind boggling how one person saying now you're outside. Folding slumps only makes you anonymously.

Again, they're not there to decide that what is and what is Islam. It's a very personal thing nobody else can tell me are religious. I am just because I'm not wearing a scarf or chose not to anymore. Doesn't make me any less religious than a person who is wearing one. It's very personal, and that's where it when it is generalizable. It's just a general rule or how to.

As well, or else is either well oiled society, but when it comes to personal stuff, it's personal. How much you pray or what your relationship will allow us is very personal. Nobody else can judge that. Another said that he will judge you as the best version of you. He's not comparing you to me. I'm not comparing compared to you or were being early. I mean, compared to me, how well I could have been done and there is a huge blessing in that the vagueness.

Of how the Scripture is is a blessing.

Because your interpretation could be right for you and for me, mine could be right, doesn't wrong.

Yeah, it's just I was just going to say that it's not going away. Their LGBTQ or a plus community voices. It's not going away and I think it's a good sign that people are talking about it even though you know they may feel disgusted or they feel a fear or they feel a sense of the fact that they are talking about these things. It means as a society we are getting to the point where we are ready to question all the things that all the things that we are really disgusting here. You know if our upbringing.

She's coming to this surface is now where we are having discussions. We are able to have these discussions and it may be the start. The starting point for it. So when people say things like you know, will Islam see an inclusion of LGBT? Do you know what I actually? I think down the line, I think we will. I think we will at some point in Charlotte and Charlotte.

Inshallah as they say.

Okay, well thank you Camille Sunny there been. Thank you for being.

I'm here and thank you very much for listening. If you would like further information or support, head to our website at hidayahlgbt.co.uk. Hidayah is a support group that amplifies the voices of LGBTQI plus Muslims. We campaign for social justice to defeat the stigma taboo and discrimination faced by many within our communities, our.

Our aim is to gain social acceptance of LGBTQ I plus Muslims. Thanks for listening and goodbye.

Stigma Of Shame Transcript

Hello and salaam, I'm Rabia and welcome to Istame'a a new podcast is for Hidayah, which means listen bringing you cutting edge dialogue on what it means to be LGBTQ. I plus and Muslim. Hidayah are the fastest growing LGBTQI plus Muslim organisation that provides a vital nationwide support system for us and by us.

The word Hidayah derives from the Arabic word for guidance. This podcast will be discussing raw and personal storeys from our members so you can better understand what life is like for us by sharing our stories. So you can better understand what life is like for us joining me today in the studio are Shelina founder and chair of Hidayah, Sarah, member of Hidayah and Muhammad, member of Hidayah today will be discussing the shame and stigma of what it is like to be LGBTQ. I plus Muslim. So Sarah, what is the stigma of being LGBT and Muslim?

So I think one of the things that we need to bear in mind when we look at stigma.

Or look at anything to do with shame, because that stigma and the shame sort of side by side here.

For me that shame comes from the community. Now if you look at the dictionary definition of shame, it's a feeling of humiliation or distress caused by wrong or foolish behaviour.

So let's dissect what that means. Why is there a stigma? Why do we think that people are feeling that this is wrong or foolish? And then that cuts right through to the heart of your identity. So the stigma is not about other people, it's about me feeling my identity is not valid in the context of what other people?

Thank you and so for me it's all around. That's the core concept for me around how we can look at stigma and shame in the LGBT animals and community. Not to answer the question will directly. What is the stigma the Muslim community used to be? A very tolerant community? We were talking historically hundreds of years ago. There was a lot more.

Eat.

There's a lot more understanding of different forms of identity. Different forms of behaviour.

And a lot more tolerance for those in more recent years, we've seen the rise of intolerance not only in the Muslim community, and not only in Islam, but globally. We can see things like Brexit.

The rise of hard right extremists across the world.

Coming into this level of intolerance, so for me the stigma isn't something that is inherent in Islam or being a Muslim. The stigma is there because for whatever reason the world has moved to a more intolerant state overtime so.

So why do you think it is?

That tolerance is decreased overtime in the Muslim community.

I don't know. I mean, we can look at historical factors. If you look at the historical age of Islam and how it's on his grown overtime, I think that with the colonial wars with segregations into countries, more tribalism coming in those things moved people away from looking at Islam and their identity as a Muslim community. One global community under one. If you like the caliphate at the time which is 1 big global community.

That got lost and got replaced by more nationalistic boundaries. And so with that you then have some tension around. I'm one nation and there's another nation. So these things can cause that.

I don't think we're going to get to the heart of why it's happened. I think we are where we are now and I think when you look at the stigma that's currently in our community.

Around being LGBT Muslim, it comes from a lack of understanding of the heart of Islam, which for me is about.

Tolerance, love, compassion for all of humanity. If we look at his behaviour, his o'clock, it was always one of inclusivity. He never shunned anyone away. He was always welcoming. He was full of compassion and love, and there are many, many examples in the Hydes about his charity, his compassion, his love, his understand.

Thing not only for different types of people, but different classes, different ethnicities, who really united people under a banner of tolerance, compassion and love. And that's for me. That's the heart of his farm and that gives us a reflection on what are is all that is about love at its at his core that his messages are about love. And so if we start from that message for me the key thing is looking.

Looking forward that way, I think people have lost that way of looking at things and have become much.

More dogmatic in the way that they have decided to interpret specific Scripture, I think for me.

The kind of stigma shame is like growing up as a woman. I think culturally there's a difference between men and women in our cultures. If you're from the South Asian culture and for me is that kind of honour that is up and for me shame derived from.

What?

You know I was constantly broke up to, kind of.

To get good grades, not for myself, more for what will family say? What will other people say in the community? You know you have to behave a certain way when it comes to weddings, etcetera. There's always something there and that for me is where this stigma shame comes from. People have this notion that when you come out, that's like the end of your journey. Ifill up LGBT Muslim.

Coming out is kind of midpoint of the journey because half the journey is coming up to yourself is navigating your own mental illness, because inevitably, myself and all of us go through things like depression and anxiety will fill out the way of the world is on our shoulders. What will the community say? What will exercise said say, especially if your family and most of us do. Our family have such a standing in the community. That's where that shame come.

Yeah, definitely.

From and I think a lot of that is to do with our culture and is to do with their very interpretation of Islam and a lot of our elders don't have that learned kind of. Islam is about love and compassion with anything. When something's gone down, the generations that you lose a bit of it, like as British Asians, we can't speak our mother tongue as well as our parents can because of primarily come from those countries, right? I know that my Bengali isn't going to ever be as good as my parents because they were born and brought up there.

With anything that's passed on generation generation, something gets lost. And unfortunately for us, but Islam, that's kind of been passed down.

The love and the compassion and inclusivity has been lost. Sometimes these armies, uski mongering tactic and that for me is where the stigma shame has come from.

For me, it's kind of the invalidation, I guess. I mean Sarah and Angelina both kind of touched upon it, and I'll the only thing I would add to that is the invalidation, I think, just picking up from from what Sarah said, and it's kind of like you're told that you can not be this way, even though that's kind of how you fundamentally feel, and therefore you feel that you're wrong.

Um and that's and that's you know, shameful but doesn't know doesn't mean it's kind of multi layered as well. I mean coming from a South Asian background then as she is quite rightly said, there is outstanding in the community thing. So my family recognition where I live I'm very embedded within the Community. So when I go to the mosque I know most of the people over there and if I kind of came out and I said I wanted to walk into the same mosque again. I mean I'm going to get stairs and looks more than I already do because, you know, I'm quite loud and I talk a lot and I make a lot of crap jokes.

So that's like that's like a level of attention. I do not need when I'm walking into a mosque and you know, I won't be able to face the same people again. I just don't need that. So the there's a lot of like this as a religious thing. Yes, there's a cultural thing. And yes, this sort of like the everyday practical things as well. You're trying to go to them, you know, go, pray to your local mosque or you're going to the shop to get someone from the local corner shop because you know every everybody knows you and you know everybody. It's a lot more difficult to do that. So what do you do is just easy, right? So you just take.

Quiet, you kind of keep it all in the bottle. It all in and then you end up leading this sort of double life and that double life as much as it gives you happiness when you sort of doing it because that's that level of freedom at the end of the day, you know that you kind of have to walk back into the closet when you walkthrough the front door again.

That's you know there's a sense of shame that comes from leading a double life as well cause you don't. You don't want to, you know you don't want to lie to everyone.

But that's essentially what we're doing. That's what you just have to do to protect your own back.

And then at some point it takes its toll on a person you either leave or you end up collapsing in your own house in a flood of tears.

Um, I'm sure that rings true for a lot of people.

How has stigma and shame impacted your lives and impacted your experience?

I had very interesting situation occured to me so I came out to myself a few years ago.

Throughout my life, I grew up not really understanding my identity because I, although I was assigned male at birth.

I identified very much with girls and the things that they were doing them clothes they were wearing and their activity activities which were traditionally assigned to the female role. And for me that was kind of weird. So when I try to move in that direction, SoC always push me back towards what my assigned role was to be male to like sports or whatever it was and there was. I would prefer very much so to sit with girls and.

The chat, so it was quite difficult growing up an looking at the world, not really understanding that and right through from quite early on I knew that there wasn't something was incongruous. Something wasn't quite right.

But the feelings for me, the feelings came and went so I didn't really give it much mind. They came sometimes, and then I sort of dealt with it. And then they went away again and I thought I said, okay, that's alright. And when I finally came out to myself.

I realised that I needed to explore what this meant and.

I'm actually coming out to myself and affirming to myself that yes, I am transgender.

That was a huge weight off my shoulders, but then I thought, what does it actually mean? So the traditional view of transgender is somebody who is going to transition from male to female and my feelings came went it wasn't a constant feeling through my life that I was assigned the wrong gender at birth.

So what what kind of transgender does this? Does this mean I have to abandon my feelings as a male completely?

And I don't really understand it, so I explored it and in exploring it, you don't really want to come out to everybody immediately before you really understood it yourself, so.

One of the things in a lot of trans people will identify this with this probably is. I went to the shops to try to find codes to see what that would look like and there's a bit of the societal awareness that a guy shouldn't be. Dressing shouldn't be shopping for women's codes.

So I go to shop, I load up my basket, I pay for it, I'd go home, try them along, and come back the next day and return. Probably all of them. Most of the time I got sick of this and at one point I said to myself I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to load up my basket and go to the changing room and I steel myself up. I loaded my basket and I put some male looking items at the tops of their jeans at the top and the Nelson more feminine items towards the bottom.

And I went to the male dressing room because I was presenting as male of course, and the security guards are never forget he was 6 foot something. Huge guy built like a house.

He looked at me and he said Tammy items and I said 10 and he kind of saw my nervousness and thought this this guys dodgy so he said I'm going to have to count them.

I thought to myself, right? Just turn away an run and that was a shame talking right? That was a shame saying to me you shouldn't be doing this. Society tells you this isn't what you should be doing. And so I wanted to run and I didn't. I stayed. I let him count the items and as he counted them, his numbers got more and more confused. So it was like 123.

He

Fool and he got to five and he said, Are you sure you want to try these? And I said yes and inside I was screaming no runaway runaway.

And I stood my ground, and he carried on counting you got to seven and he said, Are you sure you want to try these? And at this point I really thought that's it. I give up and something inside me said no. You've got to this point you've just got to stay strong and go a little bit further.

And so I said to him, yes.

I need added.

Do you have a problem with that?

Oof, yeah, and I see you like smiling at that. It wasn't a natural thing for me too. I'm not confrontational person, but I felt that in that moment I come to that point and he continued to question me. I thought I had to question him.

Within a microsecond his whole demeanour changed, he shrunk back. He became like a child, and I realised in that moment that something that I thought which was my shame. Actually I converted it into power and actually the shame that I was feeling was because I had given him power over me and I think that's what we all do. We allow SoC to have that power over us.

By this perception that we're doing something wrong, and when you change that perception, and you say yes, have you got a problem with it?

And you stand your ground and you take that power back, that shame just dissipates it, vaporise it just completely melts. And this guy became really accommodating. And he didn't even count the rest of the items, and he just handed me the back baskets in no, no, no. Not at all. You going your way and.

I'd say I got into the changing room and I couldn't move for about 5 minutes. I was shaking because all the emotions that I've gone through that you know, it felt like an hour. It was like probably a minute that this this whole interchange took place, but the whole thing sits with me now as something quite powerful, because now I just refuse to let people have that power over me. I retain my power.

And I'm not gonna let you, you and your attitude dictate what I feel. If I've done nothing wrong. And if I'm not behaving foolishly. If I'm being if I'm sitting in my identity and doing things appropriate for me, I'm not doing anything illegal and I'm not doing anything that's, you, know, going to compromise my ethics or anything like that.

I'm doing something that is.

That is true to me. If I'm doing something that's true to me, that's not foolish, and it's not wrong, and therefore the shame that other people want to put on me, I won't accept.

But such an important Storey, well powerful Storey. Does anybody else have any storeys of shame and stigma they'd like to share perhaps?

The weather I think about shame recently has been massively influenced by book that I'm currently reading, which is the velvet Rage by Alan Downs, which if anyone hasn't read her, definitely recommending its is primarily geared towards gay men, so there is that sort of caveat because that's the that's the, you know, that's the clientele like he works with, but nonetheless I think it's really good reading and it talks about shame and how even though people have consciously kind of gotten rid of that shame. So we were, you know, personnel come out when they're worth it.

Team

1621 eighteen whatever is there like you know what I'm now living my life, and so they do, but the shame that they kind of live with up until that point kind of manifests in certain ways that they don't necessarily always realise, so that's something that I'm constantly working. It's that kind of subconscious level that shame leads you to kind of seek external validation a lot, because that kind of feeling that you're comfortable with yourself.

That development, if you like, just hasn't happened properly. That's been stunted. That's been stopped, or at least warped. So what people end up doing as they go through our life is kind of covering all of that up. And there's this really powerful line in there, and I can't quit you, you know, verbatim, but there's that really is really powerful learners that think it ends their introduction, which is that for all the flamboyant Nissen for all their kind of like you know, amazing listen. You know the kind of amazing exterior where it's actually hiding is the painful truth of self hatred.

And that if you like, even though you might say to yourself, I am no longer ashamed of who I am.

That kind if you like that self hit, even though that perhaps that might not be the ten that we would give it, or some deals might give us the term that he uses that manifests itself in different kinds of ways, so you always almost trying to prove yourself to the world by being more extra by being more flamboyant by being kind of you have to be the best writer you have to be the best dressed you have to cook the best food I have to have the best house I have to have the you know everything has to be perfect. That level of perfectionism because you've always felt inadequate in you.

Life.

Hard hitting seven nail on the head.

Yeah, it really is. I mean I got to the end of their introduction and I almost cried, but yes, that's that's the kind of that's where I'm at. If you like with it. So readers, I don't feel I'm a lot more secure in sort of identity and self if you like. So when you know homophobe would come up, we would say that you know you can't begin must now I'm more inclined to laugh at that then I am to kind of like Oh my God, like how could you say that even though I am thinking like Oh my God, what the hell not again?

But you know, I'm more more likely to just sort of laugh it off and forget about it, but.

When you hear that as a kid, when you hear that for such a long time and this isn't exclusive to kind of whether you know gay and Muslim or whether you're gay of you know it's.

Somewhere societies I can understand that this is the thing of ********* in and of itself non heteronormative sexualities.

And I would probably say gender as well, though I guess that would be in my opinion, but I I couldn't like back that claim up with somebody else. Would have to would have to speak on that. Who's you know who's not me an and that's something you sort of constantly battling and sort of living with. And I think a lot of people perhaps don't have that awareness. I guess I've come out, you know, I'm out and proud I gota prides and blah blah blah and that's.

Great, what they don't see is that there's been years of damage of coded messages that you know you're not right. You are not correct. This is not right. All those coded shaming if you like, and that takes that takes years to be able to kind of unravel and unpick.

That is so powerful, I think that resonates with so many people.

Jelena what about you?

In terms of storeys, yeah, like with everyone got quite a few, but I've come out to my fam.

Me and I find that I'm kind of over the shame, but I am not empowered to family, friends, colleagues and I'm a bit different than what my friends and I think Sam and kind of anyone you are being tested this. I just take no more ******** anymore. I'm kind of at that point of actually this is my life and I'm gonna need it how I want to levels. However moments where I actually struggled to come out to shoot Muslims before, especially if their South Asian and I know why is because.

They are the picture of where my shame kind of triggers form.

Karina.

Definitely, I mean, like I find I'm far more comfortable in kind of like gay spaces and non Muslim space sell at the time. Like sometimes walking into my own local mosque and be different. I mean no one knows, yeah, but it doesn't matter that no one knows. It's the fact that.

Yeah, yeah.

They are what they are because these messages exactly.

Yeah, yeah, exactly and.

Yeah, yeah and.

Particularly for me, it's kind of straight male Muslim spaces for me can be quite.

Difficult and challenging yet.

Yeah, but even going to different gym as in different. You know if I'm in a different city for work or whatever it is, I'm just not in my local mosque at that day. I mean, that can be like.

Yeah, I'm like I'm quite stressful here.

This.

And I think that shame derives from the fact that growing up, we've had to deal with the kind of. As Mamma says, the coded messages and stuff. So for example, if I'm in a workspace and I know that someone is awesome and the South Asian, I won't come out, and that is something I'm doing consciously, whereas I'm out to my other colleagues, and that completely derives from the fact that that's a person is. Also, I think my family know, but there, ashamed with me being.

Day.

And that's difficult because you're kind of. I feel like sometimes whilst I'm not ashamed of being gay.

I feel like I can say I'm leaving that shame now. See my family. You know when you're at weddings and it's like this is the last one left to get married. Anytime there's I can see the shame from my family's eyes. Not so difficult yet. Can I know I'm not going on in that situation when you're kind of at the point where I think all of us are now? Well here.

Now.

Where we've come out to ourselves, we're out, our friends, family etcetera.

Once we've got on our journey and I'm now another side of Mila, the thing that triggers a shame, not sugars, but brings a shame back, is through my family now and is now living vicariously through them, which is difficult because actually, how do you then navigate that? How do you deal with, you know, going to weddings and your parents saying are well, she never gonna get married? You know the whole grand Asian reading that we have?

How do we? What do you say to that?

What did you say to that he doing that?

Well, I I well I'm be different on ice. I will say tomorrow I will get married but still woman Ann how each point is either it's just that again the disappointing look in her eyes and actually what needs to be said here is that I'm I'm first generation British born.

In bed, and I think sometimes we forget that our parents have had to enjoy a lot in their lives so they have immigrated from a country that is like Bangladesh, Pakistan, India are quite forward countries now you know they've got hinges have got the third genders but our parents weren't around to see that. You learn grated here. They came when on the person you have no dogs, no Blacks, no Irish.

So again.

The shame for us or for our families derived from the unknown.

They don't. They've never been in that space before, as how do they navigate that? And they don't know anyone else, whereas I know that there's like 2/2 girls. I went to school with that should come along to his island.

Amazing.

Yeah, but equally it's like our parents won't want to know that as well. That makes sense, is that shame, but I think in a generation or two is time that won't exist anymore, you know?

No, absolutely.

My nieces and nephews. Or now I'm a lesbian and they have no issues with it, but kids are a little bit easy to do. My siblings are just about Okay.

The, but I think it's you know, just constantly. I think showing them that you that you're still the person that you are and that takes time. I think when you're ready I'm a same. Everything is time, time heals, but at the moment I feel like my shame. Kind of. I leave that for IKEA see through my family now and it's unfortunate but I know again it will get better.

So what do you think it will take to be fully accepted as LGBTQ? I plus and Muslim by both the LGBTQ plus community and Muslim communities. Or do you feel that the tide is already changing?

We look at kind of ********* in this country and the gay rights movement and stuff like that. Things are still not perfect. Things are still not right. How long does that mean going on? It's been going on for decade.

In terms of games limbs, and he danced if we've been around for a few years, there is a long way to go, so I don't think it. I don't think we'll ever get to that stage, will become fully accepted, but is it getting better? Yes, it is. Will it continue getting better? I think definitely the work of her and other organisations are allowed to that as well as its kind of instrumental in that. And the other thing I would add is that.

It takes it takes a lot of conversations. It doesn't for me anyway, when I run, I talk about activism and you know, a lot of this is very kind of activism related, isn't it? In terms of million? Personally, when I think of activism, I'm not talking about being on streets with placards and marching and stuff like that. There is a formal protest and that is sometimes the right thing to do, but I'm far less likely to be there warm for my what I'm more likely to be doing is having conversations in my colleagues with my friends and stuff like that. That kind of soft activism. If you like, kind of having those individual conversations an again keeping that dialogue opening.

It needs to happen on an institutional level definitely, but I think it needs to happen in a personal level.

Well, unless when I'm talking to kind of my work colleagues and I tell them about some of the stuff that girl get up to get on with, you know. And they do listen. And they do take the time. When I came out to a lot of my Muslim friends, I mean, I don't. I mean, I won't say I can't really say where they stand put specifically, but they took out the time and listen to what I had to say. And then you know, and they listened properly and.

We're like, you know, you know they gave a crap and essentially and and I think that's what it takes. Because when you don't have any, I mean, a lot of them don't actually have. They might have gay colleagues and stuff that they work with. This certainly don't have a lot of gay friends. I was kind of one of the first, if you like, but you know, kind of to be in such an intimate social circle at University and then to one at one of them to come out as gay.

Oh right, OK, well in an I'm sure in the head like I don't know how to deal with this. It's like cognitive dissonance. This is a gay person. I am not. What do I do with you? What do I do with this entity is probably what they were thinking in the head or probably not in those kind of words.

With words and it. I mean, I'm not exactly the antidote to homophobia, and I don't think a gay person is an antidote to homophobia. It's not our job to be going on kind of educating people all the time. This is, like, well, you shouldn't be thinking this way, and I'll tell you why, because I'm a good position to do so.

But sometimes that needs to happen. You need to be able to have those conversations with people who are close because it's very easy to say well if somebody's homophobic to you, not cut them up, that's fine. You know you can. You've got other friends to rely on, but when that person is a very close friend to you, when that's your sister, when that's your mother. When that's your brother, when that's your best friend. You don't want to cut them off because you value their relationship beyond just your own ********* and sometimes it takes time to be able to work on that. It's hard, it takes time, and it will take time. But from what I've seen with my friends, a lot of them have come round.

Some of them were slightly hesitant to begin with. They didn't really.

Get it, but what they eventually realise. Some of some of them a little bit more quickly than others is that nothing's changed like I'm still the same me. I'm still the same kind of person than it takes time and they realise that you know what. You're just the same as you ever were. The only thing that's actually changes the person that you're attracted to and how often does that really come into a conversation with friends? Not all that often. How many times are you going to go around saying, well, this is the last person I've just ******* What about you like, I mean yeah happens in some circles, but it certainly doesn't happen in my.

Ann, you just kind of carry on talking about the same old things. I talk about films in cinema with my one friend when I talk about music with my other friends. And then, you know, I talk about Game of Thrones and Star Wars and.

Yeah, you're a whole person. Sometimes it's personal storeys.

Exactly, always are the most important.

I mean, that's the thing I think I'd like to like, really hone down on which is that your ********* is 8 for me anyway. It's a part of you. I don't think it's the entirity of you if that's how you wish to identify. That's fine that's on an individual basis. I don't miss other things that I get up to that I'm interested like you know, classical music and film scores. And you know, writing poetry. And you know and stuff like that.

So you know my life is a massive kind of to use that metaphor. It is a rainbow collective of many different things. It's not just ********* Yes, it's a part of that. It's very important, and it's heavily influential in a lot of what I do, but, you know, would I say that it's kind of my number one defining feature? No, I miss my muslimness. My one defining feature. No it's not.

There are different levels here, and I think the one level is Islam as a whole and if farm as a whole, I don't because it's implemented differently in different places different.

Interpretations I don't think we'll ever get full acceptance there, and I think we have to be comfortable with that.

And we have to be mindful that there will always be people who will say it's not acceptable. So I think that's that's one level. Then in terms of the interpretation of that and the implementation of that, and then you've got the societies views and how people react to LGBT Qi plus Muslims.

And that's another level, and I think that part is changing. I think globally you can see that lower countries are attracting there there sort of anti gay laws, so that's great. Seeing all those things and then if you then come down to the individual. So for me it's about the individual dialogue.

I was doing some analysis on.

Some statistics and I was looking at how many Muslims are in the country.

How many people generally percentagewise in the country according to the census and identify as non heteronormative?

And.

We're looking up with the number of Muslims in the UK just looking at the UK, potentially thousands up to 100,000.

Or more Muslims if the percentages are right wow and we have a very small percentage of those member members in Hidayah.

Wow.

But every conversation that we have with a Muslim or a normal slim expands peoples minds, and I think the key thing here is to continue that dialogue and that's what he dies about. Expanding that dialogue looking at different ways in which we can talk to people and for me it's always about the individual support. So when you talk to each person, their individual view of the world is going to be different and how they view their shame, how they view their identity, how they view their place in society and.

They place in their family.

He's going to be individual and then helping them to reconcile that with who they are. We initially started off as a support group for GBP Muslims because the four of us were like older, can't be just for LGBT Muslims in UK, and thankfully we were wrong.

And what initially started out as was just meant to be kind of an event that happens once a month, has turned into something bigger in bed.

Ta Ann and wait like it's changing, is the fact that we've been putting ourselves out there. We've been running events with other organisations, so most recently ran a series of anti prevents with Britishness and secular Democracy, which I think 10 years ago 15 years ago. I don't think would have been possible. An organisation that primarily cater towards more seems doing an event with people who are with your beauty and listen just would have been unheard of.

I'm.

And that for us is uniformly. That's how the tide is changing is we're doing more partnered events with kind of Muslim organisations. It's also putting ourselves with other organisations such as final to Say Look, we exist as people of colour as LGBT as well. Seems, you know, we need to be inclusive of everything and so for me is the vehicle an officer? Something by his being one of the founders of it out. But the vehicle of which we do that is through education is for going to University.

His partner without organisations and is having that dialogue and keeping that dialogue open.

Is how I feel like the tide will change is not going to be a change that happens overnight, but it will be something with that. I think in about 20-30 years time is going to be far better accepted and that will be for vehicles like head IR and places like this because ultimately, you know we can only speak about our own lived experiences now and ask and speak on behalf of us. And who else is going to speak on behalf of us except us.

When I when I was kind of coming to my, when it comes to terms and come to realisation that you know I'm gay and Muslim all that kind of stuff.

You know, I looked into theology and I tried to kind of find that justification that you know what time I'm allowed to be and this is okay and stuff and I just didn't really find it an then. So I turned to I kind of turned to all the principles of Islam that I was brought up with. But you know, letter light is passionate an he's the most merciful lesser one thing that stuck with me. And then came the other bit which is that your ********* is it in it or is it something that you kind of pick and choose and stuff like that. So obviously your ********* is not something that you choose, it is something else within you.

Therefore, why would God specifically create a group of people?

Talk to kind of burn and punish in hell for something that they cannot choose. You cannot be punished for something that you did not choose that's not within your power to do so, and then, if that's because if that's true, then the entire idea of being God of or being all merciful just doesn't hold any weight anymore as it doesn't make sense the entire foundation of Islam. If you like, just starts to crumble before you.

Yes, it's really important to really important.

So I kind of that. I came to an impasse, really. I kind of it was one of the two. It was one of two things that either God exists or he doesn't come in. And I was. And I was like, you know, he he is a merciful God. I do believe that. So then I. So then I thought, you know, there has to be. I don't know where that way is, but it's there and I will one day and I will find that I'm not hungry, love in you know very lucky I prayed and.

That came to me. I'm not came to me partly through the day and partly through personal reading and stuff like that. So I kind of, you know, you know everything kind of became a lot more better if you are going to have a little bit of saying things got better but you know things did eventually start falling into place for me, which you know which.

Is great wow, what an amazing episode. Thank you so much for participating. It was amazing to hear all your storeys and thank you very much for listening. If you would like further information or support, head to our website. Hadiah LGBT.

Dot co.uk.

Hadiah is a support group that amplifies the voices of LGBTQ I plus Muslims. We campaign for social justice to defeat the stigma taboo and discrimination faced by many within our communities. Our aim is to gain social acceptance as LGBTQ are plus Muslims. Thanks for listening and goodbye.

Concept of coming out Transcript

Hello Ann, Salaams, I'm Rabia and welcome to his Eyes podcast this summer, bringing you cutting edge dialogue on what it means to be LGBTQ. I plus, and Muslim. Hidayah are a leading LGBTQ I, plus Muslim organisation, that provides a vital nationwide support system for us by us. The word Hidayah derives from the Arabic word for guidance. We are proud to bring you honest, raw and personal storeys from our members so that you can better understand.

What life is like for us?

This podcast will be discussing the concept of coming out and what it means to come out joining me. Today we have some mid who is a scientist and part time LGBT plus activist.

Marea and award winning human rights Defender who works for stone wall and Almass. A film and art director who is a visible member of Hidayah so welcome Welcome, Welcome.

Well, thank you.

So I kick off this podcast with our first question, which is.

Which is what does coming out mean? Let's go fast.

I'll go first.

So I think the phrase coming out is quite an evident for me now, but it's obviously something that's very important that people need to go through. But coming out just essentially means being open about your open in quotation marks about your ********* or gender identity, and letting people around you know that you identify the certain thing anywhere on the LGBT spectrum.

So.

I think for me, coming out becomes a phrase that implies.

One of instance of a great dramatic reveal that suddenly everything becomes rosy in your life becomes wonderful and.

Everything becomes kind of finite, but actually it's a process some people never come out. Some people come out to sign and not to others, and for me, coming out is not always something you do voluntarily. Sometimes you're kind of forced to come out by your circumstances. Sometimes you routed an coming out implies an agency, but actually we live in a world where some people don't have to come out because they are assumed to be the norm, whereas the rest of us who are queer or different in some way or.

All made to kind of reveal ourselves, so we are something kind of to be observed, and I think that's quite damaging because overtime you get this feeling that if you're not coming out, you're not being authentic, and I think that's something quite damaging. And I feel that it's not just being queer where I have to come out. It's also kind of being a Muslim because so many times if I come out, I'm also then forced to reveal other parts of my identity and explain them as well. So I think it's something that can be quite traumatic for some people.

Wow.

Wow, I must.

Yeah, I think jumping up from the back of those two very very accurate.

I think for me coming out is an interesting concept because it feels a bit more of a declaration and forces transparency and sometimes not necessarily in the safest places or not, because you've chosen to when it feels comfortable, but actually because you are trying to maybe get people to understand who you are and that is the bit that I think is what coming out is is too.

I think it kind of reveals other peoples adjustments and where they are as opposed to where you are. Imagine if straight people had to come out. Imagine if everyone had to come out right and it just feels a bit weird that I I should pick a moment I guess to say hey guys this is who I am when actually everyday is who I am and if you see me and you feel me, that's that's who I am. And actually Mario really when you said about saying that you're Muslim.

I think that I've actually had to come out more as Muslims saying quick yeah, and I think as people whizz up why Are you sure I didn't realise or how? But how can you be? And I'm not well, I'm not really sure what to say like I exist then I'm here so therefore I am, you know.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

How?

Yeah, going back off, Walmart said its true like at one point in my life I had to fight for people to accept that I'm gay, right? And then now it's more of a sort of know. I'm also a Muslim as well because people have accepted the ********* Sort of a side of things.

Then the religion part gone is more questions and ********* because it's also how can you be alright? And then that's now what I face.

Right in comparison to earlier, but also that's why I'm going for lunch. That's why I said it was a bit redundant to say coming out because why should we? You know, why should we have to come out in an ideal world we can just say like that were gay and bring somebody home. It doesn't have to be a declaration, you know, because straight people don't have to do that. So why do we have to go through this sort of trauma and a negative?

It's an emotional burden tap to say those words right. But having said that, you know like we've got some heavy answers, but coming out is is a very important experience as well. It can also be very obviously uplifting and you can be proud of yourself that you came out. You know that it can give you a sense of pride as well to have done that because it's also representing and overcoming of a barrier that you put on yourself for so long, right? And then it's as people say the cliche phrase. It's a weight lifted off his shoulders when you do it, but it's also but.

Once you do the first time, obviously that's when you.

Internet, but then later in life you do have to continually come out and that's something that I think you know all of us. My experiences are.

You know when you go to new job when you go to you meet new people. You have to constantly do it or but it gets easier the more that you do because you become more confident each time you say and the less you care about the reaction.

We have

Yeah, I think it is ultimately about ownership of who you are and how you want to. Kind of not just be described, but treated an especially like for me being non binary people might kind of you know gender mean in the way that they see someone who presents kind of in a more kind of feminine way that they would associate with being women.

But The thing is, even though I've come out publicly before and it's kind of out there when you Google News right there, but I still find that even if I get a job and I introduced my pronouns, people think I'm coming out to them because they assume that because I'm Brown and because I'm Muslim, I can't have come out before that. This is a special moment for them like you wish, Babe thought, but it's just another thing, isn't it? Is you just have to like you said you have to keep doing it because people aren't ready to accept what you've already said 1000 times do.

Do you think?

You think?

You think it's necessarily hard?

Or more difficult to come out as an LGBTQ plus Muslim.

I think it is hard to come out as an LGBT plus Muslim. Obviously there are, you know, very many obvious answers for why that is the case, but recently I've felt like it's difficult to say that to sort of other people from other religions and other backgrounds.

Because they do face the same struggles that we do, we just have the, you know, the multilayer of being. You know, you know. Whatever culture back on my from the religious background and then obviously I ********* right? So we are a minority within minority with American Unity. An especially I always say that always joke that like my life would have been like even difficult if I was a woman. For example. Even more so for you guys obviously. But you got the added layer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I wouldn't have experienced, but so I have a flatmate who is his wife. He's born and raised in the UK. Didn't have to come out to his family, they just assumed that he was gay. Asked him if he was and he said yeah and then now when he finds it quite like. Not strange, but jokes that like ohh you have Brown privilege because you get to do all these things so you get to like talk to the media and you do podcasts. You do all these things.

And which I don't get to do, and so I was like, well, that's because we have difficulty in instead of accepting ourselves a lot more, because I had, you know, every member of my religious community telling me that I couldn't fundamentally be something that I am, that's something that I didn't choose to be something that I wasn't, you know, sort of deciding person behind it just is. It is what it is, right? And so, yeah, you know you go through all those experiences.

For sure, which then make it difficult for you to come back to your parents because you're worried about what they're going to say. I'm even to be openly gay within your community, like the Muslim community is even harder as well, cause you don't know how people reacted to me.

Yeah for sure.

To build on that first of all, I'm not going to lie. I was shook by the idea that we have Brown privilege for being able to speak to the media. And actually, if you think about it, our identity has become a commodity to kind of.

Thank you.

No, peoples openness or inclusivity went low shillings, sorry.

intolerant hate.

Asks out was.

Hate

All we've got tolerance. And why did you start arrangement?

So why did this is only write me off?

Exactly when actually all along, we've been suppressed actively. Whether it's like you said about the great British values, bad words, I might call that, but it's the fact that overtime with the racialization of.

Great British pound yeah.

If people of colour with the like the racialization of being a Muslim as well, the fact that overtime there have been kind of substantive government policies that affect the way that our schooling works away, that our media works the way that we even treated in terms of healthcare, it is no surprise that right now in an age where kind of journalists and media are really excited to be able to point to their token kind of queer Muslim and say, Oh my God look where not Islamophobic were not queerphobic end of Storey.

It's quite rich. That kind of people think that just because we have an identity, we have to be a spokesperson and is also.

Rich that people think that they are entitled to our Storey in same way of kind of asking us straight away. How, how on earth were you able to come out? Didn't your family dot dot Dot didn't they dis only dot dot dot it becomes kind of a part of discourse rather than your actual life Storey and it raises the nuances kind of of the privilege that we have as well. In order to be able to speak about this no matter what problems and barriers that we face so far. And it's like you were bringing up.

About how black peoples experiences differ so greatly from Brown peoples experiences. And it's like how black Muslims are constantly raised.

Within this kind of chat as well an, I think that we all need to use this kind of moment to kind of have that moment of introspection, but also think okay when I speak what is actually happening? What is the consequence of me saying yes to the Guardian next time they have a think piece? I'm actually doing people like me a service, so I'm actually being manipulated for something else to make someone appear as though they are actually doing something when when in policy they might actually have an organisation that kind of actively.

It raises and harms people like me so it becomes a problem where.

Coming out doesn't even feel like something that you earn. It becomes something for someone else to talk about.

Feel.

Three years ago I was it was Eid and we went to Bolton and there was also a family funeral at the same time and I remember just thinking, okay, well I've gotta go to this house and I know we all have to wear scarves but I don't wear scarves everyday so the internal dialogue was how true am I being until my authentic self but also why can't my Muslim part of me be part of my authentic self? So if

My family are doing this and we know my mom doesn't wear a scarf but for this occasion we always.

And now I really had to sit down and embrace this other part of me because I was like, well, the Queen S is still part of me over here, but it can sit next to this Muslim part, which can also still shine. So I still like will scarf like proper picture on Instagram that all of that stuff and like but in a way that was like celebrating like this part of me and being allowed to be visible in both capacities. So I think the answer is like for me I know that there's a set of signifiers that I have to consider, and that's always going in the back of my mind.

Would anyone like to share their personal Storey of coming out?

Coming out was.

It was a very, very difficult experience. Like absolutely don't want to have in my life, but I see I say that now, Ann and thinking back it was just like coming out now it's so easy for me to do like when I tell people meet new people were so busy but back then doing it for the first time it was so hard an and from so when I came out I did it first to my dad and he was the first person I ever told and that was after years of years of like sort of facing up to.

This challenge, essentially in my head, where I thought that I was just going to be ostracised and I had a whole fear. Basically of you know what was going to happen if I did that right? So I grew up.

You know when you when you're in a South Asian community, right? The cultural sort of expectation of a boy is that you're going to be dutiful son. You're going to get married to a woman that was my narrative given to me that was fabricated from the things I expect.

It's grown up. I'm going to beautiful son. I'm going to marry a woman. I'm going to have kids. I'm going to perfect nuclear family and I'm going to have a successful career, right? So that's what was expected of me, but I knew fundamentally as a child cause I know what's going on. 8 years old. I'm pretty sure a new primary school. That and I knew since then that like when obviously being sort of realities of being gay were apparent to me, I knew that.

I'm going to be a disappointment. I'm going to break the sort of you know, in tired perfect nuclear family that my parents have worked to build. I'm going to be a shame bringing shame to the family. I'm going to be, you know, completely ostracised or not going to know me. So then whenever my family and stuff we had like sort of get togethers and there was all like everybody being happy.

It was so difficult for me to say it would be a part of it, because internally I knew that like this is all going to breakdown because of me. At one point I had that burden of thinking that right at the age of 15, like throughout my teenagers, by when I should have my primary focus should have been GCS. And you know, thinking about you know stuff that teenagers do. Yeah, it consumes you and it literally became such a huge burden to.

Consumes you, does it?

Consumes you, does.

With.

But then it may be depressed. It made me have really bad anxiety, low self esteem or that sort of stuff, right? It really started to mental health turmoil. But then Luckily thankfully you know a lot of people don't come through that right. And we know that their storeys of loads of suicides. LGBT suicide is one of the highest rates in obviously all the people that do commit suicide.

And.

I did get to a point where that could have been more reality, but then I remember that's when I started to see visible people within the media who identified as gay. None of them were Muslim. None of them are South Asian, but they were, you know, visible LGBT people that were doing good in the world an were respected by people and were successful, right? And then that was because I had, you know, the Internet in my hand in a club. Find bloggers and like people on YouTube who is sharing coming out storeys.

Steve and I have.

Tell us of any of these personalities online, perhaps.

Yeah, so I mean a lot, even like very famous ones. Then DeGeneres is one of a big person who really helped for me.

Yeah.

Because seeing how loved she was, unlike how successful she was by opening and also openly being a lesbian that was such like a huge example to me that like Ohh you can be gay and you can have a live. Your life isn't consumed by, you know, negativity all the time by being yet it can be a positive thing. And that's something that she showed to me for the first time people like there was a Blogger called Mark Miller who does a YouTube channel of him in his boyfriend and he did a coming out video as well.

I remember some of these off my head, but all of them were all of them are white and suspended. None of them look like me who had the same experience, but nonetheless it was very helpful anyway and then that then that sort of experience and having access to that material was able to then show me that you know what?

In

I want to be that person right that I can have that live and then that was a switch for me when I realised you know what?

I want to be successful. I'm entering my 20s like a very.

Shortly, I do not want to enter that decade. Having the same experience I've had now, right there is no chance in hell that's going to happen because it was such, you know, such a negative like sort of rule term or that experience of coming to terms with it. And so then I was like you know what I'm going to do it. And then I had to prepare myself in very many ways to be ostracised right. So I just accepted that if that was going to happen to me, then so be it right. I called my friend and I said I can I please stay with you. I'll pack a bag.

Yeah.

I'm going to come out to my family. Can I please stay with you? I expected the worst, right? And then for me. Also, I told myself that like.

If my family doesn't accept me and they don't love me anymore, then I'm going to have to just be prepared to accept that. That is something that I'm going to live with.

But then Luckily I had a very, very opposite experience and when I came out to my dad literally, I just said to him that I'm gay and he and she thought that I've got somebody pregnant. When I said I've got some to tell him also, currently opposite.

Yahoo.

Good news.

It's not that.

And then he was just so he was shocked him like he had such a poker face. And I was like, do you want to talk to me about it or anything? And he was like no, not yet. So you processed.

And then, but on the same evening he then came back to me, and we had a conversation. And then he was open to the conversation, and that was something that I'm really thankful for, because I know that a lot of people don't have that right, because some parents have such an initial, you know, right angle, you know, a reaction of anger and can for some people become violent. You know? Yeah, and that's all. That's a huge point that I want to make.

That there are positive storeys of people coming out within our communities, whether the South Asian, where Muslim, whatever religion, there are positive uplifting coming out storeys and all that was being shared in the media. Back then when I was growing up was just, you know LGBT Muslims are on TV. Their faces were blacked out and for good reason right? I understand obviously why that experience happens, but for me as an LGBT kid it within that community seeing that as.

You know my representation TV was always a taboo thing, you know, made it even worse for me an so thankfully I had a positive reaction. I expected to have that, you know, whole thing, but no is great, but we kept it from my mum who is a more religious of the two. But then we ended up coming out to her Father's Day actually, which is kinda ruined the day for my dad, but never would again like it comes back to the whole being a dutiful something. So my brother was expected to marry somebody and my mum was picking faults at her.

And I know she might not be the best option or for this reason and it really bothered me because you're only going to get one, you know.

I'm not going to get two, so if you don't like, you can't get one from me, so they're not really. That's when it started to really become a thing for me because I was like she needs to know I can't. You know, I can't lie to her anymore. It's so hard to live a lie. And then I actually got really emotional. And then I couldn't tell my brother then told her for me.

Yeah.

Yeah, and then he said it for.

And then she cried and cried and cried, right? And also no like you know, I've destroy Hershey is, I don't know how she's going to cope with this. But then, you know, she really surprised me again as well because she turned around and she said, when I asked her why she's been crying so much, he literally said to me that like I can't believe that you knew that you would go when you're 8 years old, and you're telling me now, at the age of 2021 and you held that inside of your soul.

Long and part of the reason you couldn't tell me was because of obviously religious reasons. You thought I was really religious, like I wouldn't except you. You know, she said that I felt guilty that as a mother that like that's what you thought, right? That you couldn't tell.

Me, anything that's so beautiful that is.

Yeah, I I.

Was just I stood back and I was really surprised I was like.

You know like that. That's the thing you know. This is what my Muslim community told me that maybe you didn't say those words to me that you can't be gay, but that's what the South Asian Muslim community taught me, right? That I couldn't be. You know, open openly gay to you that I couldn't tell you that.

And then that's when she was, like, you know, what were then things need to change, right? And so then, yeah, that's

And are your parents? If you don't mind me asking, fully accepting of you now and supportive.

Yeah, my dad is Mum still thinks that like oh, it could be a phase and that it could be a change. And it's weird though because like when you are now the person as well in your honour.

A face.

Face.

Spectrum I've had experiences recently where I'm like. I don't know could I should identify as gay should identify something else right now really freaks me out. It's my mum's prayers working.

Like this, you know you know, how do I?

Oh my God praise.

But yeah, but yes. But there fully accepting I can talk about it openly. I can say, you know, refer to the right gender when I want to talk about my love life. And I can say he and if it doesn't, it doesn't incite you. No awkwardness and doesn't incite like a sharp intake of breath.

File.

To my extended family.

I know I've gone about this for a long time, but that's something that is quite a funny Storey like the show now. So with my extended family, my parents like you know what you're going to do.

No.

Going to become successful, yeah, you can get your degree. You can relate. Yeah, you're going to get your degree and then you're going to. We can have dinner, right? Like when you're 2728, right? And then everyone's going to be there and then we'll announce it at the table. I was like.

I'm not.

You don't get it.

Dinosaur

How is that okay?

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Who reveal it?

Yeah, exactly. Leverage workers. Apparently that was it was good to have. Like something to fall back on. Ohh, he's gay but his successful you know Anne and I first of all yeah, was I first of all, define successful cause like that's. That's also a thing, but so I decided to.

Spectrum Bank say something.

Yes, I'm going to London I met a few people and at University and meet my friend at Uni. We were both talking about how desperately single we were at that time and a certain shoes. Like you know what would be great idea if we both applied to first date. So I was Oh yeah that would be great. So I applied and then I actually got a callback right? So then they started asking about, you know?

Your experience in LGBT Muslim? This would be a great thing to talk about because we never had that on the show and obviously they had their agenda of wanting to obviously portray that right. But I was like you know what? I'm all full visibility if that's something that can help somebody out there to see that you can be an LGBT plus an Muslim then so be it. Then I'm going to take the opportunity. So then I did it and then I never told the rest of my family that was doing it and I wasn't answered him. At that point. My dad knew that was going to end, but I was at McDonald's.

And then look.

Meanwhile, you'll get it free on national television.

Are you a national TV?

But that point I'm very I'm very.

Obviously compromised at points. I didn't care if anybody knew so as I said earlier, I had to get to the point where if nobody accepted it, I just didn't care, right had to really bring us after that point and so then my day threw food at my face when I was there, right? So that meant that I end up being the advertisement for the new series.

Oh my God.

So that happened, and then my aunt equals. My mom was like oh so I've just seen some on TV.

I was like, yeah, that's happening and then they watched it.

And then that's how. Then they realise that I'm gay, so that's how I came out to them.

Ha ha ha.

Oh my God ohh wow.

But then my dad then said that that was a perfect way of doing it because I didn't have to give an explanation right. It was sort of visual like explanation for them that all being gay means is being an.

Date you know and like not being there, but you know I mean like being just experiencing other stuff. Straight people do right and it is nothing out of the norm, you know and it takes away the hypersexualized idea that they've got of us. Yeah, US fears exactly and it would you know it didn't show like you know that we're all at chemsex parties and doing that sort of stuff you know on Saturday night. So no.

The worst fears is gay people. Yeah, yeah.

Fair.

For me.

I really hard when you when you mentioned the brush that your painted of your own community and not only on community by yourself like you've got this idea that like ohh my gosh like gonna be disowned like my brothers are going to come and beat me up and like you know all of this stuff going through my mind and it really I think like kind of obscured my actual view of my fam.

Only because everyday you see like those demonstrations of like love and like just you know banter and whatever it is. And then I've got this like massive like megaphone. That's like coming in through the media through examples that you see. And when I started this journey, I remember I like fast going out and being like I just need to find an example. I really wanted to meet like me.

In not like my 60s or like any anywhere above kind of faulty, I just wanted to meet like a queer Brown woman who I at the time I didn't even consider that someone could be Muslim as well. I just needed like a person of colour that was queer and I couldn't find anyone in my immediate circles. And that's not to say it didn't exist, but I just think my like my viewpoint of stuff was just quite limited and so.

The way that.

I came out to the world was I my friend does make up and I got her to like do my face makeup and my lips were rainbow and then I put that up on like Instagram, Facebook, Twitter with like with a piece on just like what was going through and like why I was doing this an it was very much. I was saying that when when I went through that process I didn't.

Have anyone? I couldn't find anyone that looked like me, so there must be other people going through the same thing, so I'm going to be that person. Hopefully for someone else, just be out there. So then my face is just there with this massive rainbow over my break. And so I did that and I think my mum I already come up to my mum before this and I actually didn't come out to her. I was straightening my hair. I had longer hair then and she came up behind me and she was like.

Is 7 so your girlfriend and I was like crap. I was like ohh my gosh like this is the moment that you actually you either life or another like long period of time or you just like rip it off like a pastor in it's done. So I turned around and I was like yeah like she's my girlfriend and my mum was like. So what does that mean then? And I was like she's my girlfriend and I don't know like that's what I mean she was like yeah but like are you lesbian house like?

I actually don't know. I don't know like that. All I know is that, like I'm in a relationship and I really like this woman, Ann, we get on and we love each other and say this to either was too scared but that was going in my head now and so.

Very quickly it was being asked to like label and figure out who I was and that's when I realised that all of the terms that you know people used to identify cells are actually functional for other people, more so an. And yes for yourself to like help like you know, align yourself and figure out what it is.

I use the word queer instead of lesbian or BI because I also see myself as really fluid and I guess the closest thing that I would find myself too in terms of ********* is pansexual, and this is because it feels like the most all encompassing term that I found. But anyway, my mum said will say she then left the room and went and sat in her bed in shed little cry and then she came back in and she was like I'm just going to the post office.

This.

And then she.

And then she.

Carried on like with her, with her errands and it was so nice. I did feel like I it was easier for me as a woman and having another womans energy in the house.

If my brothers were gay, then I think my mum still would have been really accepting, but I just think it would have been harder because I would be times when my previous partner and I would just kind of be watching TV in bed or whatever and my mum would come in and watch TV together. Have a chat and I just think she'd find it harder with the boys. My brothers were really chill, my extended family, don't know, but the reason why is because I think my mum.

I think that's my. I'd like to speak to my mum about it first, because I think that actually the consequences and repercussions are going to come down on her from the community. Not on me. But it's also still doesn't stop me doing any of my visibility stuff. So actually everyone probably knows, but just there, sitting with that discomfort, not me.

So that's cool and so.

I think I do feel scared sometimes of pea family that I have abroad.

That I I just have to let kind of live my truth and I feel like that's like the most useful thing is that I've always thought about being my most authentic self, whatever that means and in turn actually it's allowed me to really push my openness towards other people and just be aware like when something makes me feel like all kind of cheque that a little bit because.

It's it's all about growth and learning. I think, like what we've been taught in all these ideas that you've been taught, and also in 2015 I went to Bangalore in India to film my debut documentary and I went an connected and had loads of amazing conversations with the hydro community in Bangalore and so.

The hydro community are our community within the trans community across India and is very much based on like your socio economic status and your class. And I remember coming back and talking to my uncles and honestly well it was like the day again will have already but I was like oh I've just been to Bangalore. I did this amazing documentary like such a big achievement for me like first verse documentary.

And then he was like, oh, what was it on now? So I was on the history community and you and you know, like he just went blank like he just didn't even wanna entertain like the conversation. And I was like wow, like you've got such a warped Sis head view of what it means to be South Asian. I've gotten, I found real evidence and joy and celebration. And you can't even see that about your own people. And so the idea that I was fed not only by the media but from my family that.

Grew up in India and came over was this very like very neat like idea cookie Cutter idea of what it means to be Indian and Muslim?

And I don't think that they were ready and didn't like the the bits. That kind of seep out of that little cookie cutter beer. And so I really enjoy like exploring it more and more and realise it when I go back home that actually like the conversations I like light years ahead of. Yeah like of stuff in in the West like it's mad it we've been. I also. I just think that I've been given this like really like Disney idea of like what it means to be Indian was live and I go. A little girl was sitting in this room with like 50 Massey's. I'm not even joking yeah.

Yes, I agree with you so much there, yeah.

Yes.

Actually here.

And they were like we don't subscribe to the construct of gender.

In Bangalore and I was like ohh my gosh that I need to get my stuff together and you don't mean like your yeah I was like wow like your because then a lot of Pocs cultures actually believe in gender fluidity. I don't necessarily mean in terms of the concept was speaking about right now, but you know, when we think about like deities and Kings and Queens like those gender terms didn't actually really ever exist and gender roles depending on like what's politically is going on in the country.

Wow, okay.

Yeah, exactly so true.

Always off fluid like you've always got people stepping in for various roles and there's always power as well, like in different space.

Is and so the coming out for me was really chill, but actually the thought process and the things that I had to weigh up in my head about the culture that I knew and the culture I was seeing versus the culture that was being told about myself was a whole different journey that I'm still on, you know, and I'm really looking forward to like continuing to work within the Muslim community specifically across all cultures, an explore it a little bit more so.

I feel like I should start with my childhood, take it back, you know, memoir style.

I was born with facial palsy, which paralysed the left side of my face.

So I kind of grew up with lots of kind of people touching around me saying I won't amount to anything. Being worried about my marriage prospects, and so I always kind of had this some weight on my shoulder about kind of being an over achiever so that's why I am a professional over achiever and which I feel like many South Asians will relate.

But yeah, so there was always this pressure to succeed and I feel like I almost felt like I had to like overachieve with my coming out as well an throughout my life I've always been an activist. I joined a political party when I was eight years old. That's when I made my first speech to kind of counsellors and an MP about the Iraq invasion and how illegal it was. So I've never had this kind of.

Alright, stop for those eight years old.

Yeah, I was like I said over achiever.

OK.

I.

But but like I guess what I'm trying to say is sideways, being very aware of my political surround.

Thanks so it kind of only made sense. You know, when I was first introduced to the idea of like what being non binary is my first thought wasn't so much about how do I reconcile this with myself because I was quite chill person. I always have been. It was more okay. This is something I know about me and kind of what. What can I do to make sure that I don't waste this opportunity?

Because I've always thought about my responsibility in SoC and knowing that I'm very privileged to have had kind of lots of opportunities to be a campaigner, Anne. How can I use my voice to make sure that other people can raise their voices as well? Because they definitely do existed. Maybe just being kind of drowned out.

So I joined the Young Leaders programme with the US Embassy and around an opportunity came up which was to see President Obama make his final state visit to the UK and ours. Like L sign up for that year.

Just as one or more as well. So yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Exactly in it and then.

Just casually, why not? Yeah okay, no problem. Yeah go see him. Yeah I make time for sure, you know.

And hold I actually got picked to go and when I got there my typical like dissing us kicked in and I had my way to the front row subway yeah made.

Google.

The men inside Obama's gonna like shake the line he's going to shake your hand. I was like, Oh my God, my life is made up and I was really excited. But then he started talking and he goes oh I'm going to take questions in a boy girl Boy Girl format and I was just sat there like Okay first of all that's really patronising. We're not all children second of all oh I'm going to have to be the one to tell Obama what non binary is.

And then this is a kind of an under reported Storey, but actually first of all he said sometimes in life to create change you have to do something a bit crazy. So I yelled out. Can I do something crazy right now in all this sequel service? Just looked at me like Oh my God here comes a terrorist and I was like ohh damn I'm going to turn this around coz the Daily Mail were in front they took a picture of my without all.

Oh

My God, no, I don't want to be that roundabout.

Not the Daily Mail.

Ignore it, is there.

So then he just goes no. And I was like Oh my God, my life is over. But then my life really started when I put my hand up again and he said.

Hey you, but he clearly thought you have to have some kind of level of bravery I guess to yell at Obama and not get shot. So um. So then I started off by telling him and coming out to him as non binary on kind of national TV in front of all the world's media. But I also used the opportunity to highlight kind of the terrible transphobia that was ongoing in North Carolina and other U.S. states where trans people were going to have to kind of prove their identity and kind of go to the wrong toilet associated with identity on.

Kind of like birth documents and things like that, and it was just also so messed up and I said to.

President Obama said look OK in one year, I'd help the Civil service re haul their attitude to kind of trans inclusion. Why can you not even say one sentence in support of trans people in America right now? Why can't you use your power? Because there are people like me in this country. There are people like a kind of meat in the US have been fighting for recognition for such a long time. Is your duty as the leader of the Free World Assembly people call you to say and do something about it and give quite disappointing response about the difference between state and federal law.

And I just thought, okay, this is a bit of a cop out the audacity I had of kind of coming.

Now lead to this massive media moment where there is so much pressure on Obama that he did eventually speak out on it and introduced a kind of US wide legislation on inclusion in schools for young people who are LGBT and.

You would have thought I'd be really proud in that moment. You would have thought that I would have sat back and thought Oh my God, yes I've done like my life's work. It's all good for me.

Now, but I just went oh ****

Are the kind of gargantuan kind of repercussions that hadn't even considered properly in that moment so so kind of pent up in doing the activist thing that I forgot that hadn't actually come out to my family yet? Yeah, so in between kind of leaving that room. And like all these celebrities and TV people coming at me, interviewing me. Whatever I was, just kind of focused on the fact that I still hadn't told my fam.

Yeah, and I felt so guilty and I felt really upset because my whole life has been about the importance of family and the importance of like respect for your parents.

And I just I felt like I was doing an import.

Nothing but what feels important in the bigger scheme of things doesn't always feel important when you're on the frontline. Like you said, your parents facing that daily battle, and so when I got home it was quite tense and I'm not going to go into the details. I don't want to hurt anyone, but my dad was the one who really.

Impressed me because.

He said well, don't worry about when we're saying wow, you got to me Obama.

And then you guys, well, you've always been a son and a daughter to me.

And you know there's anything you ever need to just have to ask me and I just thought, wow, you know so many people spend so much time kind of reading maligning Pakistani Muslim men as being kind of antiquated and backwards and you kind of you know Auntie everything when actually.

They also want to feel loved and the bond, I think between me and my dad really strengthened that day because I saw him defend me against so much vitriol and I was really, really harassed in terms of people making videos about me that I had to report to the police. They were going viral. They were like people who'd within my own community. People I knew had paid people to harass me and that's

Really messed up.

It's really messed up and yet at the same time I was getting kind of letters and emails in all kinds of support. Pouring in from all around the world apart from the people.

In my local town and that was like, Oh my God, you guys are so wrapped up in wanting to hate me as a figure for kind of whatever you hate that you you can't see. The fact that you know what we've actually done here is something monumental. When doesn't someone get the opportunity to do something like that? And I am actually really proud of it. And now what I find really funny is that we don't talk about me being non binary. We don't talk about my activism, but if you go in the living room of my house, there's a letter from Obama.

That mentions I'm non binary and there's a medal that I got for being like what that?

The.

All right, that's all this stuff like.

Remember us?

That and nobody ever doors by bus.

I'm I'm really grateful that I have kind of that inner resilience that I've kind of unfortunately had to build overtime and that I have a supportive network of friends. And now even though I can't really be properly out all the time.

At least I personally feel like whatever I did not how much hurt it caused me personally. The things I've gone to do since then like becoming an expert at the UN, who'd have thought that like me, if like his family come from a tiny village of Pakistan but end up being a UN expert like would have thought of these things like that.

Who would?

Who?

How power does come from that moment? I don't want anyone else to ever feel as disempowered. I, as I have other people I know, have fell overtime, and so if that means that I have to make that sacrifice. Sacrifices which South Asians are really familiar with, then I'm happy to do that because for me, my life's purpose is to use the gifts and the privilege that I have to make the world a better place.

Wow, that is so powerful and thank you so much for sharing that.

Yeah.

That wow each and everyone of your storeys is really phenomenal and really wonderful to listen to. So thank you finally.

Each of them people lies.

Of them people lies.

Final quest.

And what advice would you give to LGBT plus Muslims who may be struggling with their identity and who may not have come out yet?

I'm something that I have recently so been thinking about is.

Is that for LGBT Muslims, are we?

Need to realise that.

Coming out will put us, well, those who haven't come out will put them on the right side of history, right? Because?

You think about it.

There was a point in the world at one point, like not very long ago, like maybe 100 years ago where people use religious text to condone the unequal treatment of races, right? Which led to, you know slavery and allsorts of things are not right and women didn't have equal rights. Not a very long time ago, right? Very small fraction of time again.

So coming out, well, definitely put you on the right side of history, because Can you imagine 100 years from now when people have to learn about the fight that LGBT people had to be visible, they would find it very strange. Like how we do of the people of the time that all that time ago that they actually allowed religious text to, you know, to not agree with us and to not less have equal rights, right? So coming out and being visible within the South Asian community? It's sort of like.

Making a statement and you're putting yourself forwards to show other people that.

You know we are who we are and this parent visibility.

I think I have 3 tips. Um, so my first one is find your people and they don't have to look like you or speak like you. Okay, I think there's a big pressure when you're thinking about your gender identity or your ********* that you have to find people who are only exactly like you. That is not true. It's up to you to decide what your community looks like and feels like.

For me, finding hair Dyer was actually life changing because I'd spent my whole life campaigning as kind of solo artist. If you will like living that lovely life of solitude, feeling quite alone, despite the fact that I was out there and had a voice, I always felt this kind of weird tension. Like what if other Muslims don't like me because in my experience that's what always happened. I kind of had that internalised Islamophobia.

Well, I was worried as well. What if other LGB people don't like me coz I'm non binary? I won't have to go through that as well. So the concept of finding LGBTQI plus Muslims was like Oh my God, will I ever find people who accept all of me? But then I found him LOL. Found a few other groups as well an it just really kind of made me feel at home because I didn't have to explain myself anymore.

And that was really important to me cause I'm so tired of explaining every aspect to myself and having to justify whatever I do but within her bio. Never had to do that.

The second thing is learning your boundaries. You get to decide what you share with him. You get to decide how how that looks. You get to decide what you dress like and when. Like if someone says you're not being authentic because in a situation for your own safety, you've decided not to dress or use the right pronouns that you normally do, or kind of out yourself, then that's up to you and they have no right to decide what your safety should look like and force you into a situation of being unsafe.

And similarly, if someone comes knocking and says I want to hear from you, and I want you to talk about your Storey, you have every right to say no, because it's not.

It's not just kind of something that everyone is entitled to an it's up to you to decide how you tell your Storey and when an if at all ever. And the third thing is which kind of encompasses whatever he said.

Is that you know what's right for you right now. So if right now kind of being queer, being Muslim looks like you know, just doing what you've always done then just continue to do that. If it means some kind of change, then do that too.

You just know that there are people out there. There is support out there so that if you ever decide to do something that you've not done before or to think about something you hadn't thought about before, then there are people who are there to support you and it doesn't have to be something that you carried by yourself because I know for me I spent my whole life being very kind of self reliance and feeling like I can never ever trouble anyone with any of my troubles. Least of all my own family, because I knew I could see what they were going through every single day. But I don't want anyone to feel like.

There isn't someone who's ready.

Listen and it also goes without saying for your relationship with your religion. Sometimes my relationship with my religion has changed overtime. Sometimes it's been stronger. Sometimes my faith has been weaker. Sometimes people have told me like you can't be Muslim. You've gotta be an ex Muslim now because you came out and I'm like, well, that's up to me. I can make whatever decision I want and whatever decision I make will be the right one. And I have every faith and I'll support Bella. And in the people I love that I'm never going to fall because there's always going to be someone there to catch me.

Sorry to be so cliche.

One thing I would say is that I came to terms with as well that helped me understand that being LGBT Muslim can be synonymous, right is that?

Him.

Just because a person is dressed a certain way and they claimed to be, you know more understanding of religion than you are and that they're in a position of power within the religious community. They are no different than you under the eyes of God just because they know the same book that we will read to a greater detail, right. They have their own interpretation, as would you.

Preach, yeah.

And if you stand in lines of prayer at the mosque or at home with your family an you feel positively impacted by religion. If you feel that your words have been heard. If you feel that your your benefiting from having a lie in your life, then you your existence is affirmation enough, right that you can be LGBTQ plus an Muslim. Why you don't need validation from anybody else right? Because they just don't understand what it means to be LGBTQ. Plus you can educate them if you want to, but that's not your responsibility.

Just because the moment the mosque says that.

It is frightening that he's saying that to a lot of people and he will, you know. Definitely formulate a lot of using opinions for very many people in the community, but just know that you are on the right path and that you know LGBT people can be synonymous with faith. Whether it you know be Islam or any other faith in the world, right? You can be both.

A last final words I think I'd.

Add.

Say thinking about the topic of this episode is.

Coming outright, and I think that coming out first is an internal journey. So before you are ready to speak to anyone, just be comfortable with that conversation and the internal dialogue with yourself, because there will be so many questions that come to you and actually like it's nice to go through that process.

Inward first. So when people come to you and you say, well, I'll actually. I haven't thought about that yet or I have thought about it and this is how I feel and I think you just have to trust yourself above anyone in anything that's in my most trying moment. I've always just thought.

Yeah, you know yourself. Like you know what who you are. You know your values and your more rules like from mind yourself with that stuff cause in this life people will try and define you and actually like they don't get to do that, you know. And so I think that's the one thing is like. Strengthen that internal dialogue. Take that time. That's why we pray we meditate or we whatever it is that you do in your personal time. That conversation is so important.

Because when that door closes, you are only left with you right? And those ghosts. All those happy thoughts or sad thoughts, wherever they are, you have to make sure that you've kind of explored every crevice of your mind, because that stuff can take you by surprise sometimes and you don't want to be your own enemy. An I think that in the process of coming out, I think you practically thinking then I would say think about your safety.

So as Samir said, you know you called your friend right and you said hey look, I'm coming up to my family. Can I stay at yours if you've got people around you that you know that you can rely on? Set yourself up for safety just as a back up with you. And that might mean a manner of things that just that might mean for your family as well. Saying actually mum like I'm going to speak to someone. So can you just be on hand?

All best friend or whatever, it is. Just make sure that you've got that coz it's all well and good luck. You know wanting that freedom and that liberation but we don't live in a world necessarily where everyone is kind. And I think we have to bear that in mind when we're moving. I would support the idea of community that building your community of people are everything and finding examples of yourself or parts of you that maybe overlap is really really key. And I think the most frustrating thing that I think I've found is people telling me that.

Well, you can't be. You can't be LGBT, you know. And I'm I'm Muslim. You can't and I'm like well.

I am I'm.

Here that you can for the till the cows come home you can say right that like actually it's wrong and you can't do it. But if the evidence is there in front of you then what are you actually like arguing against? Because also a lot also made me right and we're meant to respect each other and look after each other and were meant to my version of Islam is like full of compassion and kindness and charity.

And not full of like violence and judgement and like hates or when people are saying you're not missed him. And I'm like that's weird because like you're acting so far away from what I think and I believe like Islam and being a Muslim is, so where does that put us? Because we are clearly like understanding the same thing in a different way.

And yes.

Yes.

And you know, yeah, I think that's the main thing is.

Letting people know that we're here, and I think that that even this this conversation in itself is so special because I am in my wildest dreams would not have thought 10 years ago that I'd be sitting recording a podcast about being queer Muslim. There's no way, and I really hope that like it, this gets to people. So then they can hear it and see, actually, like.

Wow like way cool where normal people would. You don't mean like we're just people. I no one gets to speak on your faith no one like your conversation with your might ease your conversation with the Almighty Caswell everyday. When it comes Judgement Day no one else with you. We've been told that from when you were born to do for you had told you that you are on your own so cool that let me have that dialogue. Let me then explore it. Let me define Islam for what I think.

Yes.

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Yes.

And definitely interrogate things like that.

Thank you, thank you though.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you and thank you very much for listening. If only you could feel the energy in this room. It is electric. Everything cathartic. It has been powerful. I teared up a few times but yeah, thanks for listening and if you would like further information or support head to our website at hidayahlgbt.co.uk. Hidayah is a support group that amplifies the voices of LGBTQI plus Muslims.

The Campaign for Social Justice to defeat the stigma taboo and discrimination faced by many within our communities. Our aim is to gain social acceptance as LGBTQI plus Muslims.

Thanks and goodbye.

Many LGBTQ+ Muslims in the United Kingdom face secrecy, hostile prejudice, homophobia, biphobia and transphobia, family exile, forced marriage, honour based violence and in rare cases, death.

Not only do LGBTQ+ Muslims face challenges within their community, people of faith can face a lot of stigma, and are often assumed to be homophobic, biphobic and transphobic by default. This is particularly heightened for Muslims.

Current Islamophobic tropes have given rise to the idea that being Muslim and being LGBTQ+ is impossible. This makes coming out for Muslim LGBTQ+ people extremely difficult and many individuals are not visibly out, which can cause them to feel isolated, invisible and alone.

Hidayah is a leading LGBTQ+ Muslim charity that was created to increase representation, acceptance and equality by providing a public face to the community and creating safe spaces to communicate.